A Civilized And Focused Discussion On Life Teen

[Cam42]

double post....stoopid hang ups....

Edited June 22, 2011 by Cam42

[Papist]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308691224' post='2256957']
[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4][color=#606060][size=2][b]Quote[/b][/size][/color]

[size=2][b]1. Scripture[/b] – There is very little in Scripture that seems to spell out the proper way to dress for sacred worship. There is the general directive to [i]Adore the Lord in holy attire [/i](Psalm 96:9;Ps 29:2)

[b]2. Church norms and rules[/b] – There are no official and specific Church norms or requirement for lay persons who attend Mass mentioned in Canon Law or the Sacramentary. Surely for priests and other clergy there are many rules and norms but I am unaware of any currently binding norms for the laity. Although the veils were once required for women,the 1917 Code of Canon Law was abrogated and the current code is silent on any requirement.

[b]3. Hence it seems that Culture supplies[/b] most of the norms regarding what is considered appropriate attire for Church. And,alas our culture is currently quite unhelpful to us in this regard. Here in America we have become extremely casual about the way we dress for just about everything. It seems we almost never dress up anymore. This has changed somewhat dramatically in my own life time of just less than 50 years. “Sneakers” or “tennis shoes” as we called them were for sports or running around and playing in the neighborhood. But we would never even think of wearing them to school and certainly not to Church. I remember having a special set of shoes just for church. In the 1960s,it was also expected that I would go to Church in formal,pressed trousers,a button down shirt,and,except in the hottest months,a tie and even a suit jacket in winter. My sister and mother always wore a dress. pantaloons would not even have been considered for them. For the younger girls a skirt and a blouse might be OK but preferably a dress with a hat or veil.

[b]But things changed dramatically around 1970.[/b] The photo above right was taken in 1969 at St. John the Evangelist Parish in Canton,Massachusetts. It was the end of an era. Within five years neckties were lost and jeans and a t-shirts came to be the norm. Most of the women as we discussed lost the veil,and dresses gave way to more casual pantaloons suits and then also to other more casual things like jeans etc. Shorts for men and women,unthinkable in previous years also began to appear in church as did tank tops and other beach attire. Within ten years the culture of dressing up for Church was almost wholly abandoned. Now wearing a tie to Church would seem stuffy and formal.

[b]4. Hence at the cost of seeming old and stuffy I might like to suggest a few norms and I hope you’ll supply your own as well:[/b]

[list][*]Men should wear formal shoes to Church. We used to call these hard shoes (because they were) but today many formal shoes are actually quite comfortable.[*]Men should wear trousers (not jeans).[*]Men should never wear shorts to Church.[*]Men should wear a decent shirt,preferably a button down shirt. If it is a pullover shirt it should include a collar. Wearing a plain t-shirt without a collar is too informal.[*]Men should consider wearing a tie to Church and in cooler weather,a suit coat. Some may consider this a bit too stuffy and formal but who knows,you might be a trend setter![*][i]Now as I talk about women I know I’ll get in some trouble![/i][*]Women should wear decent shoes to Church. Flip flops,beach sandals etc. seem inappropriate.[*]Women should not wear shorts to Church.[*]Women,if they wear pantaloons,should never wear jeans to Church. Some nice slacks that are not too tight can be fine.[*]Women should consider wearing a dress or at least a skirt in preference to pantaloons. It just looks a bit more formal than pantaloons.[*]Women should wear a nice blouse (if they are not wearing a full dress). The blouse or shirt they wear should not be too tight.[*]Sleeveless garments are pushing it a bit but can be acceptable.[*]Women should never wear tank tops,tube tops,spaghetti straps,or bare midriffs to Church. [b]Editor’s Note:How about adding low-cut or tight shirts and blouses.[/b][*]Well,you may have at this list. Add or subtract as you will.[/list][b][b]
[/b]A final thought[/b]:Clothes say something about what we think,what we value. They also influence how we behave and feel. That our culture has become so casual about everything says something about us. I cannot exactly articulate it but it seems to say,“[i]nothing is really all that important[/i].” But that is not true. Going to God’s house IS important. Being ministered to by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is astounding. Casual attire in these circumstances is simply inappropriate if we really think about what we are doing,where we are going and who it is we will meet. It does not necessarily follow that we must wear tuxedos and formal gowns. But decent semi-formal attire seems wholly appropriate. Sunday is special,God’s House is special. Somethings really ARE important and our clothing and demeanor ought to reflect this truth.[/size][/size][/font][/color]
From Monsignor Charles Pope:

That is a truncated adaptation of [url="http://blog.adw.org/2010/05/adore-the-lord-in-holy-attire-on-proper-dress-for-mass/"]THIS[/url].

I think it is a good summation of what I've been trying to say all along.


[/quote]
I like! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

Edited June 22, 2011 by Papist

[Cam42]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1308692327' post='2256969']
I find most appealing the thought of being clothed in virtue.

I found this as an example.
Not only is Mary Queen of Carmel, but also the Beauty and Flower of Carmel, the Flos Carmeli. In Mary's perfect yes, the Church sees itself brought to perfection. Her splendid purity and loving humility adorn the Church in the eyes of her Divine Spouse. So Mary gives her own beauty to the order of Carmel. Carmelites rely on Mary, their Mother, to bestow on them her own virtue and merit. By her scapular, Mary clothes her children in Carmel with her very self.
[/quote]

This.

and Mary is never in shorts and a t-shirt.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1308729011' post='2257198']
What if I [i]honestly[/i] feel that I do look my best in a t-shirt and shorts? Because I do. Maybe I am just hopelessly inept (a very probable possibility) when it comes to attire, I think I've always been. It's always confused the hell out of me as to all the rules as to what is appropriate to wear to certain occasions, and always dread occasions where I have to dress up. When I look at myself in a dress I think "there is no way people are going to buy this" I feel totally mismatched and hopelessly out of place.

When I dress myself for Mass, I really do try to take the effort to understand what it is I am going to do (although I'm human and do get stuck with going through the motions at times) but I don't feel like my dress [i]has[/i] to reflect that. And that's not being said in a lazy "well I don't have to do it so I'm gonna do the minimum and nothing more," but my dress will reflect [i]different[/i] things to [i]different[/i] people. [b]That's just the reality of the situation. As much as you try to say there are objective standards, I really can't believe that. Maybe within certain communities and certain demographics but I really don't think it's as black and white as you think. [/b]My dress [i]to me[/i] does reflect respect and dignity but I [i]know[/i] that it will not reflect the same to certain folks. The thing is I can't know all the rules, all the ways it might reflect to other people, I only know how the reflection appears to myself. And figuring out how to reflect the right thing to everyone has been too exhausting for me. I don't understand why someone doesn't see the same reflection that I can see when I look at myself in a colorful t-shirt and a pair of jeans. It's impossible for some people to look at that attire and see the same thing, but does that mean I'm wrong for seeing signs dignity and reverence where others don't? Like maybe I'm just fooling myself and seeing things that aren't there?
[/quote]
I heartily agree with this, especially the bolded part. Where I live, what is considered dressed up is very different than other parts of the country. This isn't to say that everyone even meets that standard of dressed up for Mass, but there is a different understanding of what constitutes dressed up. And this isn't just the younger generation, this is how the culture here is. When my husband first moved here, he got annoyed at how few people "dressed up" for Mass, until he saw pictures from a local wedding and realized THAT IS dressed up for them. And then he saw what work clothes looked like in comparison and understood that because of the culture here, there is just a different understanding of dressing up.

[MithLuin]

PICSPAM!!


What if Mary is [i]on[/i] your t-shirt?

[img]http://images0.cpcache.com/product/84500760v5_480x480_Front_Color-LightPink.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.sacredwaste.com/c/our_lady_of_guadalupe_tshirt-p235292142720008226v200k_400.jpg[/img]


T-shirts are predated by the T tunic, the standard (simplest) form of dress in medieval Europe (more the Mediterranean south than the Viking north). A T tunic can be made by folding the cloth four times, cutting away the sleeve, unfolding it, and completing the side seam.

Like so: [url=http://iollan.com/archive/rencester/new/tunic.html]How to make a T-tunic[/url]
[img]http://hospitaler.ansteorra.org/graphics/fip/pattern2.gif[/img]
A 'real' one would be made without wasting so much fabric, but whatever.

I don't think it inappropriate to attend mass in authentic period garb (such as a T-tunic), provided the material and construction are not sloppy/cheap and it fits you. [Just for a new twist on 'exceptions to the rule' of dress slacks/dresses/skirts/blouses/dress shirts.] Again, I'm not disagreeing with the idea of having a basic standard of 'people should dress up for mass' to begin with.

[img]http://c3po.barnesos.net/~polaris/SCA/Garb/imageindex.mediums/Nat-GreenTunic.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.psalterydreams.com/catalog/images/openarmcoathardielarge.jpg[/img]


While it is true that Mary is always depicted in much more formal clothing, the reality is that she was a peasant girl in first century Palestine. So, during her time on earth, I doubt she had many opportunities to 'dress up'...and being Mary, I seriously doubt she was all that concerned about missing out on this aspect of life. That's not to say she wouldn't have made every effort to have a neat and clean appearance when attending temple or synagogue, I hasten to add, but her appearance was probably closer to this image than how we typically think:

[img]http://www.artchive.com/artchive/t/tanner/annunciation.jpg[/img]

I appreciate the meaning of dressing her in red and blue in traditional iconography, and I wouldn't want to change that. I think much of the artwork depicting Mary is beautiful (though not all!) And while the more formal/anachronistic clothing can be quite meaningful, I don't view it as particularly...realistic. That wasn't what the artist is going for.

Edited June 22, 2011 by MithLuin

[Lil Red]

[quote]If you want to talk about your aversions to dressing up, that is a psychological issue and one that I am not prepared nor am I qualified to discuss. So, I will leave that to the health care professionals to deal with.[/quote]

i think it's incredibly inappropriate to suggest to someone that they have a psychological issue for not wanting to dress up. give me a break.

[Lil Red]

[quote]Now as I talk about women I know I’ll get in some trouble!
Women should wear decent shoes to Church. Flip flops,beach sandals etc. seem inappropriate.
Women should not wear shorts to Church.
Women,if they wear pantaloons,should never wear jeans to Church. Some nice slacks that are not too tight can be fine.
Women should consider wearing a dress or at least a skirt in preference to pantaloons. It just looks a bit more formal than pantaloons.
Women should wear a nice blouse (if they are not wearing a full dress). The blouse or shirt they wear should not be too tight.
Sleeveless garments are pushing it a bit but can be acceptable.
Women should never wear tank tops,tube tops,spaghetti straps,or bare midriffs to Church. Editor’s Note:How about adding low-cut or tight shirts and blouses.[/quote]

to be honest, it is incredibly hard for many moms (myself included) to find modest tops because either of: pregnancy (umm, women tend to get a bit busty during pregnancy), post-pregnancy (nursing), and toddler age (grabby hands). oh well. i do what i can, and that's all i can do.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308759812' post='2257280']
i think it's incredibly inappropriate to suggest to someone that they have a psychological issue for not wanting to dress up. give me a break.
[/quote]

duly noted, thank you.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308760298' post='2257282']
to be honest, it is incredibly hard for many moms (myself included) to find modest tops because either of: pregnancy (umm, women tend to get a bit busty during pregnancy), post-pregnancy (nursing), and toddler age (grabby hands). oh well. i do what i can, and that's all i can do.
[/quote]

But you care and understand where you are. That is different than saying "Jesus doesn't care how I dress for Mass" and not even trying.

[Brother Adam]

For Cam42 -

I test bulletin articles on parishioners before publishing them. All three parishioners took a look at the guidelines from Msgr Pope and said "That sounds old school and oppressive." In 3-4 sentences how would you respond in order to preemptively attack the argument? That is about the attention span of most people reading a bulletin article.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1308771080' post='2257329']
For Cam42 -

I test bulletin articles on parishioners before publishing them. All three parishioners took a look at the guidelines from Msgr Pope and said "That sounds old school and oppressive." In 3-4 sentences how would you respond in order to preemptively attack the argument? That is about the attention span of most people reading a bulletin article.
[/quote]

I would go to Monsignor Pope's own words and say something like:

Clothes say something about what we think, what we value. They also influence how we behave and feel. That our culture has become so casual about everything says something about us. I cannot exactly articulate it but it seems to say, “[i]nothing is really all that important[/i].” But that is not true. Going to God’s house IS important. Being ministered to by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is astounding. Casual attire in these circumstances is simply inappropriate if we really think about what we are doing, where we are going and who it is we will meet. It does not necessarily follow that we must wear tuxedos and formal gowns. But decent semi-formal attire seems wholly appropriate. Sunday is special, God’s House is special. Somethings really ARE important and our clothing and demeanor ought to reflect this truth.


I would adapt from there...

[Nihil Obstat]

Y'know, I've noticed something interesting. Most people don't mind talking about modesty and appropriateness in clothing in general terms. Everyone agrees that it's an issue to discuss, etc..
However, the second anyone mentions any kind of specific, concrete example, that's where the major disagreements begin. Nobody minds "everybody should dress modestly", but the moment Cam says, for instance, "Women, if they wear pa[s][/s]nts, should never wear jeans to Church. Some nice slacks that are not too tight can be fine", some people just flip out. Not here necessarily, although I won't say it doesn't happen here.

People, I think, don't mind it being said that they (the general 'they') should be modest. What they don't like is any implication, no matter how slight, that maybe they (now the personal 'they') actually have to change something to be modest, or more modest, or more appropriately dressed for Mass. We want [i]other people[/i] to have to change. The clothes [i]I[/i] wear are just fine, tyvm; it's other people that need to do a better job.
It's not a conscious thing, I'm sure, but it's there. That is what I'm seeing.

It's a problem though; the same problem most of the rest of the world has. We want to point at somebody else, because if other people are worse than us, then we're not so bad after all. Except we're all bad. We all need to change. No matter how bad other people are, we still need to be better.

Interesting thought.

[Cam42]

Here is what I wear to Mass, most Sundays.....

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/Church/1-3-2011082.jpg[/IMG]

I'm standing next to the altar with my hands folded...but sometimes, I dress like this....

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/Church/IMG_4720.jpg[/IMG]

That's me in the front...

but I never dress like this, for Mass....

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/Misc/Really.jpg[/IMG]

That's tailgating a Hawkeye football game...

If I'm in lay clothes it's like this....

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/Misc/AndySusanandEric.jpg[/IMG]

That was after my uncle Vincent's funeral...I didn't change before we went to supper...my cousin Eric, did.

[MithLuin]

[b]NO[/b], I agree that people take it very personally when anyone suggests that they might be doing something wrong and have to change. No one likes correction, and only a wise/humble person is likely to take it graciously. At least, we seem to need Proverbs to tell us to .

But part of it is honestly just very different opinions over what is, in fact, 'dressing up.' Or what is 'modest.' These are the types of questions that can have general guidelines, but are also going to have widely divergent opinions and cultural differences from place to place or in different generations, etc. To avoid argument, it is sometimes best to talk about [i]why[/i] someone should dress up (and mention 'Sunday best') and then let them figure out what that means.

There are actually genuine universally accepted statements concerning modesty. No one is going to claim that it is modest for a woman to wear a skirt with no underwear and sit with her legs open. No one (in the US) is going to consider 'barefoot and in pajamas' as dressed up.

The problem is where you draw the line, and that is not something people are likely to agree about...even more so if it is pushed back past their own standards. People resent rules and guidelines by nature, because it's someone else choosing for you, but we tend to accept them if we understand the reason for them and they are reasonable....even if they do create [i]some[/i] inconvenience.

What we wear is very much a cultural thing and has to do with how we relate to society. It sends messages to other people about us. So, there's a lot that goes into whether or not we follow the cultural norms or buck the trends.

I would not suggest wearing lingerie to mass. Nor this:

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oTBFwED-u2E/TMos5BY6U9I/AAAAAAAAC2I/BW3-A-MVz_4/s1600/costume-ideas-architect-church-carnival.jpg[/img]

See, I think you [i]can[/i] come up with a list that no one would argue with.

1. Private parts should be private, not visible for the world to see. The Church is not a nudist colony. Please wear clothing.
2. Gird your loins. The Bible says so.
3. Undergarments should not be visible. Other garments should be over them. Possible exception: stray bra straps, but see #6.
4. Outfits worn to mass should not cause scandal. If someone could mistake you for a hooker or exotic dancer who came straight from work, you are being an unnecessary distraction. Unless, of course, that [i]is[/i] your profession, in which case, we are glad you could join us at mass!
5. Your outfit should convey some respect for the mass, so try to avoid sports gear, wrinkled clothing or outfits that suggest you do not care about your appearance. It's okay if you don't care, but try to hide that - not from God, though, since He already knows.
6. Modesty is a virtue. Please consider how much skin you are showing and how tight your clothing is. If the voice of your inner parent says, "You're not leaving the house dressed like that..." then you should not enter God's house dressed like that. Spandex is not your friend, and questionable means no.
7. Take into account the local culture, and try to avoid social taboos. In some places, this means NO SHORTS.
8. No matter what you do, someone somewhere will NOT APPROVE of your clothing choices. This is okay. Learning to deal with one another is one of the trials of life that can be an avenue of grace. If you are that person, remember to say a prayer for the person whose outfit has you riled.


Yes it's 4 in the morning and I'm slap happy. Sorry. I just....its hard for me to be serious indefinitely.....

[Cam42]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1308902849' post='2258018']
[b]NO[/b], I agree that people take it very personally when anyone suggests that they might be doing something wrong and have to change. No one likes correction, and only a wise/humble person is likely to take it graciously. At least, we seem to need Proverbs to tell us to .

But part of it is honestly just very different opinions over what is, in fact, 'dressing up.' Or what is 'modest.' These are the types of questions that can have general guidelines, but are also going to have widely divergent opinions and cultural differences from place to place or in different generations, etc. To avoid argument, it is sometimes best to talk about [i]why[/i] someone should dress up (and mention 'Sunday best') and then let them figure out what that means.

There are actually genuine universally accepted statements concerning modesty. No one is going to claim that it is modest for a woman to wear a skirt with no underwear and sit with her legs open. No one (in the US) is going to consider 'barefoot and in pajamas' as dressed up.

The problem is where you draw the line, and that is not something people are likely to agree about...even more so if it is pushed back past their own standards. People resent rules and guidelines by nature, because it's someone else choosing for you, but we tend to accept them if we understand the reason for them and they are reasonable....even if they do create [i]some[/i] inconvenience.

What we wear is very much a cultural thing and has to do with how we relate to society. It sends messages to other people about us. So, there's a lot that goes into whether or not we follow the cultural norms or buck the trends.

I would not suggest wearing lingerie to mass. Nor this:

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oTBFwED-u2E/TMos5BY6U9I/AAAAAAAAC2I/BW3-A-MVz_4/s1600/costume-ideas-architect-church-carnival.jpg[/img]

See, I think you [i]can[/i] come up with a list that no one would argue with.

1. Private parts should be private, not visible for the world to see. The Church is not a nudist colony. Please wear clothing.
2. Gird your loins. The Bible says so.
3. Undergarments should not be visible. Other garments should be over them. Possible exception: stray bra straps, but see #6.
4. Outfits worn to mass should not cause scandal. If someone could mistake you for a hooker or exotic dancer who came straight from work, you are being an unnecessary distraction. Unless, of course, that [i]is[/i] your profession, in which case, we are glad you could join us at mass!
5. Your outfit should convey some respect for the mass, so try to avoid sports gear, wrinkled clothing or outfits that suggest you do not care about your appearance. It's okay if you don't care, but try to hide that - not from God, though, since He already knows.
6. Modesty is a virtue. Please consider how much skin you are showing and how tight your clothing is. If the voice of your inner parent says, "You're not leaving the house dressed like that..." then you should not enter God's house dressed like that. Spandex is not your friend, and questionable means no.
7. Take into account the local culture, and try to avoid social taboos. In some places, this means NO SHORTS.
8. No matter what you do, someone somewhere will NOT APPROVE of your clothing choices. This is okay. Learning to deal with one another is one of the trials of life that can be an avenue of grace. If you are that person, remember to say a prayer for the person whose outfit has you riled.


Yes it's 4 in the morning and I'm slap happy. Sorry. I just....its hard for me to be serious indefinitely.....
[/quote]


Not to be difficult, but I posted a list very similar to this from Monsignor Pope? Wouldn't it have been better to simply support what Mons. Pope said, since it is very similar to you...I mean after all, with all things being equal, he [b]IS[/b] a priest. Touche. I wouldn't want you being inconsistent as you cross threads...see post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113352&view=findpost&p=2256957"]#112[/url].

In this istance, I am more willing to accept Monsignor Pope a face value because he is being a pastor in a setting which is pastoral, whereas in the other thread the priest is approached as a theologian, but is not attempting to teach. He is simply giving his personal opinion on a matter and there is no attempt on his part to be a teacher. Had he approached it as a theologian and offered a response in an instructional manner with documentation which could fully support his position, I would have taken it as such. As a matter of fact, I asked for it and it still wasn't given...so the nuance is pretty important.

I don't want to confuse threads, but I thought that is a pretty big distinction...if you would like to continue that conversation, please spin it to another thread, so we can stay on topic....otherwise, just respond and let's move it to PM.

Edited June 24, 2011 by Cam42