kujo Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='iheartjp2' timestamp='1308610535' post='2256535'] You know, I think the minimum gets a bad rap. Isn't the fact that its the minimum make it part of the spectrum of acceptability? [/quote] No, it's like "flare." If you're only doing "the minimum", you're not really "expressing" yourself. [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CGuQn-kenpA/TanI4_nwNlI/AAAAAAAABJg/G6QErqw8mQ0/s400/jennifer-aniston-flair-office-space.jpg[/img] [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308615744' post='2256577'] I'm not talking about fashion. I'm talking about appropriateness. I could care less if you are wearing Joseph Aboud or Men's Wearhouse. The idea is that you're dressing properly for the King of the Universe. At no time in history has there been a movement toward the "informal" as there is today. What shows that you're taking the Sacrifice of the Mass seriously? T-shirt, shorts and Nike Shox or a dress shirt, slacks and a pair of dress shoes? [/quote] Pardon me for not understanding you, but are you suggesting that I need to demonstrate that I'm "taking the Sacrifice of the Mass seriously" by wearing slacks, shirts and a pair of dress shoes? Who am I trying to impress here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308594735' post='2256370'] Really? I don't think so. [u]I'm not calling attention to myself when I am asking others to dress appropriately[/u]. See, that is the flaw in your argument. [/quote] [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308599125' post='2256397'] ....and often times, I'm in black slacks and a either a button down or a soft collared shirt, because I wear a cassock most weekends. [i]But nobody knows how I'm dressed under the cassock[/i]. In the summer, I will often have shorts on, but I can guarantee you that I have dress socks and black shoes on, [i]so that you would not know any differently[/i]. If I were not in cassock, I would be in suit coat and tie, as I said.... [/quote] Idk, Cam, I think there is a difference as you said earlier about dressing for man and dressing for God. Please do not take offense, but it seems like you're more concerned with man acknowledging that you dress appropriately than God acknowledging your appearance. To the part of the post I underlined, you are doing just that by including how you dress as a template for how all men should dress in your arguments for church attire. I believe that it is a person trying to look their best that matters, not whether or not they're wearing a suit and tie, or dress and stockings. What is presentable in other cultures might be what you consider inappropriate for Mass here in the U.S. Jesus said "Let the children come to me," not, "Let the children come to me, but only if they look good!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308613511' post='2256562'] "... I'm in black slacks and a either a button down or a soft collared shirt, because I wear a cassock most weekends." Ummm... I'm trying to understand this. You wear a cassock most weekends - does that mean you're in the seminary? Or do you mean you wear a cassock while you're serving Mass? If you're in a seminary, is it an SSPX seminary? Because I remember you saying that you've been "assisting at" SSPX Mass lately. [/quote] No, I'm not in the seminary any longer, but I volunteer in my parish as a Master of Ceremonies. Insofar as I do that, I wear what is expected of a Master of Ceremonies, a cassock and surplice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308663132' post='2256761'] No, it's like "flare." If you're only doing "the minimum", you're not really "expressing" yourself. [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CGuQn-kenpA/TanI4_nwNlI/AAAAAAAABJg/G6QErqw8mQ0/s400/jennifer-aniston-flair-office-space.jpg[/img] Pardon me for not understanding you, but are you suggesting that I need to demonstrate that I'm "taking the Sacrifice of the Mass seriously" by wearing slacks, shirts and a pair of dress shoes? Who am I trying to impress here? [/quote] It isn't about impressing any one person. It is about looking your best to give glory to God. Sure, it can be done in a t-shirt and shorts, but why would you want to? Why wouldn't you want to look your best for the single most important thing you will do all week? I have never once said that this was bout anything other than giving proper respect to God. This isn't about fashion sense, this isn't about impressing the person in front of you. This isn't a materialistic thing, this is about looking your best for the most important thing that you will do as a Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1308665025' post='2256768'] Idk, Cam, I think there is a difference as you said earlier about dressing for man and dressing for God. Please do not take offense, but it seems like you're more concerned with man acknowledging that you dress appropriately than God acknowledging your appearance. To the part of the post I underlined, you are doing just that by including how you dress as a template for how all men should dress in your arguments for church attire. I believe that it is a person trying to look their best that matters, not whether or not they're wearing a suit and tie, or dress and stockings. What is presentable in other cultures might be what you consider inappropriate for Mass here in the U.S. Jesus said "Let the children come to me," not, "Let the children come to me, but only if they look good!" [/quote] This isn't about my appearance. It would be very easy to dress in a t-shirt and shorts to go to Mass, but I don't. I dress in a suit coat and tie, becuase I realize that the importance of what I am doing. Sure it's a template for how men should dress, but that is an acceptable critique. Men should dress up for a more important event. And for a Catholic, that is the the source and summit of their life in the Church....and a t-shirt and shorts are ok for that? As for italicizing my dress under the cassock, it is the cassock that people see. The fact that I wear anything under the cassock is a sign of modesty. Think of it this way...do you expect to see a woman wearing slacks and a polo or button down under a dress? No. You see the dress. The same thing applies to the cassock. While the cassock isn't a dress, it is the attire of one serving the Mass...and for a priest, it is his daily work wear, or at least it can be. So, it would seem that what he wears (and what I wear) underneath it should simply follow the same rules of etiquette that a woman would do with wearing a dress...the fact that priests wear more under a cassock is a truer sign of modesty, but I can assure you that wearing a wool cassock all day with slacks and a button down can be very hot in the summer months. Finally, speaking about cultures....we are in an American/European culture....I am not passing judgment on what goes on in Nigeria, but rather I am speaking about what is appropriate in North America and in Europe. That being said, I've assisted at Masses on the following continents....North America (US, Canada, and Mexico), Europe (Italy, Sicily, Austria, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France), Asia (Israel and Lebanon), and Africa (Egypt). In all of these places, the people who dress with the least amount of respect for the sacred mysteries is in Europe and North America. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If you were going to meet the president, would you wear shorts, t-shirts and sneakers? No, you'd wear a suit. And if you didn't have one, most people would buy one or at least borrow one. How more appropriate is it to wear your best to Mass, and especially when approaching to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. There is a reason why at a wedding the bride wears an elaborate gown and groom wears a tux. There are 168 hours in a week. I think for 1 of those hours I can wear a slacks, jacket and tie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1308668086' post='2256795'] If you were going to meet the president, would you wear shorts, t-shirts and sneakers? No, you'd wear a suit. And if you didn't have one, most people would buy one or at least borrow one. How more appropriate is it to wear your best to Mass, and especially when approaching to receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. There is a reason why at a wedding the bride wears an elaborate gown and groom wears a tux. There are 168 hours in a week. I think for 1 of those hours I can wear a slacks, jacket and tie. [/quote] Your attempt at guilt aside, I'm gonna go ahead and fall back on the same thing I've said for several pages now: God doesn't care about it. Audrey was dead on above--it seems like you guys are more concerned with dressing in such a way that other people will believe is the correct way to dress at mass. It's not about God--or at least it's not ALL about God. If it was, you wouldn't care how others dressed. You'd do your thing and barely even notice others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Jesus isn't our homeboy He is King of the Universe and we are subjects in His empire. Christ does care, we should care to give our very best to the King of kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1308670078' post='2256800'] Jesus isn't our homeboy He is King of the Universe and we are subjects in His empire. Christ does care, we should care to give our very best to the King of kings. [/quote] Matthew 22:11-14 11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 12 And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308669390' post='2256797'] Your attempt at guilt aside, I'm gonna go ahead and fall back on the same thing I've said for several pages now: God doesn't care about it. Audrey was dead on above--it seems like you guys are more concerned with dressing in such a way that other people will believe is the correct way to dress at mass. It's not about God--or at least it's not ALL about God. If it was, you wouldn't care how others dressed. You'd do your thing and barely even notice others. [/quote] If you think it is about making you feel guilty, then you are missing the point. I don't think we are called to go in debt and buy a suit just to go to mass. If t-shirt, cut-off jeans and flip-flips is the best you got, then so be it. However, if you have slacks, collared shirt and dress shoes, I believe it to be worthwhile to wear the best you have. We are human sensual beings. We bring more to mass than our heart. With your line of thinking, you see no problem with a woman wearing a bikini to mass or a man wearing his spandex cyclist unitard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 the bottom line is, how many of us make the effort to give God our best? I think most of the time, we're just lazy, and we'll throw on whatever is comfortable for us. I think we should take the time to dress up for the Sacred Banquet which the King has invited us to. This is something i try to instill in teh teens in my catechism classes. I tell them to stop looking like they just woke up, rolled out of bed, and came to church. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308666346' post='2256777'] No, I'm not in the seminary any longer, but I volunteer in my parish as a Master of Ceremonies. Insofar as I do that, I wear what is expected of a Master of Ceremonies, a cassock and surplice. [/quote] AH! Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1308671300' post='2256811'] If you think it is about making you feel guilty, then you are missing the point. I don't think we are called to go in debt and buy a suit just to go to mass. If t-shirt, cut-off jeans and flip-flips is the best you got, then so be it. However, if you have slacks, collared shirt and dress shoes, I believe it to be worthwhile to wear the best you have. We are human sensual beings. We bring more to mass than our heart. With your line of thinking, you see no problem with a woman wearing a bikini to mass or a man wearing his spandex cyclist unitard. [/quote] "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." - Matthew 11:28 "While walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon (who is called Peter) and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen. And he said to them, 'Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.'” Matthew 4:18-19 Notice that Jesus doesn't say "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest...but only once you take a shower and put on some clean clothes. Cuz, daaamn! You stank!" And no, my logic does not include serious modesty infractions. But nice try. [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1308671988' post='2256819'] I tell them to stop looking like they just woke up, rolled out of bed, and came to church. lol. [/quote] And so what if they did? Is that such a terrible offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1308671300' post='2256811'] With your line of thinking, you see no problem with a woman wearing a bikini to mass or a man wearing his spandex cyclist unitard. [/quote] Um....those outfits would be immodest, and so inappropriate for the inside of a church. Or really most other public events. We [i]can[/i] see each other, so if you wear an immodest outfit, others will notice and perhaps react poorly. Their sins are their own problems, but why put a stumbling block in your brother's path? What we choose to wear also sends a social message. If you dress sloppily, people will not respect you. It's not [i]illegal[/i] to go to the supermarket in your pajamas and flip flops, but it is generally frowned upon (and some stores will deny you service if you are underdressed). There's the standard, "No shoes, no shirt, no service." This is a separate issue from modesty, but it does broadcast a message loud and clear. So, if you are trying to show respect for mass, you will try to dress up a bit. Casual/inappropriate dress is a symptom of American culture. Well, at least the segment of our culture disparagingly referred to as 'white trash.' If you [i]really[/i] need evidence of this, go to [url=http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?page_id=9804]People of Walmart[/url]. These pictures are not pretty, and some are not decent. You have been warned. That being said, I [i]have[/i] gone to both confession and adoration in my PJs. It was the middle of the night at a retreat. And I've attended mass in paint splattered jeans with holes in the knees. I was in college. So this isn't something that only 'other people' do. Anyway. It wasn't that I wasn't taught properly, either. It's just that I've never cared an iota about my appearance. My mom had to constantly fight with me growing up to get me to wear something nice to mass - I threatened to wear jeans and sneakers to Christmas mass one year; since I was serving, it didn't really matter, did it? (I didn't, though.) I was probably in middle school at the time. I think that dressing up shows respect, and lets other people see that you care about going to mass (and didn't just roll out of bed and accidentally wind up there). But I will not say that attending mass in a t-shirt is always a bad thing. I did for a month straight when I was a [url=http://blog.themoes.us/p/charism.html]Missionary of the Eucharist[/url] - we were itinerant, and didn't have the luxury of bringing dress clothes with us or of changing each day after mass before we started walking. Shorts and tshirt for daily mass on the go, tshirt with skirt/slacks for Sunday mass (our 'day of rest' so we weren't walking.) We [i]did[/i] wear something nicer to the Sisters of Life profession, though. (That involved a quick trip to Target the night before.) [img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-m_EbxjdVrRg/Sy2f424KlhI/AAAAAAAADFU/nt3mrYcuu10/s1600/DSCF3472.JPG[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308677546' post='2256849'] And no, my logic does not include serious modesty infractions. [/quote] Oh? So you can define which are serious modesty infractions and which are not. Why you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now