kujo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't think Jesus feels dissed when I go to mass in khaki shorts and a nice polo shirt. Call me crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308603152' post='2256441'] crazy [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 throw on some pantaloons, and tuck in the polo.. there..isn't that nice now? oh, and comb your hair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308603380' post='2256443'] throw on some pantaloons, and tuck in the polo.. there..isn't that nice now? oh, and comb your hair! [/quote] yer durn hippie! [img]http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/old%20man%20with%20cane.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308602810' post='2256437'] I don't think Jesus feels dissed when I go to mass in khaki shorts and a nice polo shirt. Call me crazy. [/quote] *facebook like* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I also think that Jesus appreciates that when I go to Mass, I go trying to honour Him in every way that I possibly can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308602810' post='2256437'] I don't think Jesus feels dissed when I go to mass in khaki shorts and a nice polo shirt. Call me crazy. [/quote] So, just doing the mimimum is acceptable...? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1308602654' post='2256434'] I did not say that one [i]should[/i] be informal at mass, did I? I just said that there is a difference. In my many years of experience at PM and the many, many threads on this subject, I have learned that people equate immodesty and informality. They are not the same. One can be very modest and informal or very dressy and immodest. I find immodesty distracting (even for me-- a middle-aged woman). I don't find informality distracting. I think if/when I'm tempted to be distracted by a person's informal clothes, I need to refocus my attention elsewhere. Immodesty, on the other hand, is intended to draw attention. I'm not going to judge a family with tweens and teens in informal attire. Honestly, it's not a battle I would want to fight because in this day and age it is so very, very easy to have young people walk out of the Church and never come back. I would not judge a parent for allowing a middle ground. I'm sure you will disagree with me. It's always easy for those who do not have to deal with these situations to judge. [/quote] And so shorts and t-shirts will rule the day. It takes a change in our attitude to get those people to change. Perhaps this is a fight worth fighting. I didn't say anything about judging anyone, but rather, I talked about catechizing them on proper attire for the sake of respect for the King of the Universe. Informality can be as distracting and even more deadly than immodesty, because it breeds complacency. If there is no reason to stand on formality when it comes to something small like attire, where is the discipline to properly catechize something big like the real presence.... Let me give and example....I know you have kids. I am going to assume that you allowed your kids to ride bicycles. Are there rules about riding the bicycle? Are they allowed to ride bicycles in the street or are they expected to stay on the sidewalks? I would assume sidewalks. Do you allow them to ride their bikes across intersections or do you make them walk them across? I would assume you have them walk their bikes across... Ok, so what if you started to let that slide and eventually they become complacent about checking both directions and and one day one of your kids gets hit by and oncoming car...it's not such a small deal anymore.... The same thing applies here.... So we don't say anything about attire. There are basic rules about dress and going to church, but we're not going to hold them to it....after a time, a bigger rule comes out like a teaching on women's ordination. But because we let small rules slide like attire at church or chewing gum during Mass, or some series of small things, they have a sense of informality when it comes to accepting a larger teaching of the Church. So, because these smaller rules were not enforced, there was nothing holding them to dissenting from larger ones...and blammo....they start falling away from the Church, because they disagree...all because they were not held accountable to proper attire.... Before you shrug it off...that is exactly how it has been working in the Church for decades now. Poor catechesis on the small stuff has led to out and out dissention on the big stuff and people have left the Church over it....that is what Bishop Nickless is getting at. That is what Bishop Sample is getting at. That is what I am getting at. Don't suffer the small stuff, for it is the small pricks that cause the most blood loss.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308603380' post='2256443'] throw on some pantaloons, and tuck in the polo.. there..isn't that nice now? oh, and comb your hair! [/quote] A) I'm fat, so the shirt-tucked-in look is sort of a sore spot for me. I don't tuck my shirt in for the same reason I don't wear suspenders: I don't need to draw attention to my girth. B) I shave my head every 10 days, so combing my hair isn't an issue. Neither is shaving, since I rarely do that either. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308605325' post='2256468'] I also think that Jesus appreciates that when I go to Mass, I go trying to honour Him in every way that I possibly can. [/quote] +1 And I believe that being overly-scrupulous about what I'm going to wear distracts me and my mindset prior to Mass. Thus, I make sure that whatever I'm wearing isn't wrinkled or stained, and passes the ole sniff test. I assure you, if you saw me on Sunday evening at mass, you'd say "Daaaaamn! That dude looks like he REALLY loves Jesus!" [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308605659' post='2256475'] So, just doing the mimimum is acceptable...? Interesting... [/quote] If by "minimum" you mean donning clothing that glorifies Him, sure. I doubt very much that He's got much concern about what fashion is considered "appropriate" by contemporary standards. Because, if the standard is slacks and a dress shirt, that might be considered by some to be too informal, and that a tie and a jacket is better. Of course, there might be some that believe that a certain style of jacket glorifies Him more than others, or that He has an opinion regarding the correct shade of fuschia or the pattern of the tie or its length or knot-type. Nah, something tells me that He just looks at my heart and not the logo on my chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308606433' post='2256483'] Let me give and example....I know you have kids. I am going to assume that you allowed your kids to ride bicycles. Are there rules about riding the bicycle? Are they allowed to ride bicycles in the street or are they expected to stay on the sidewalks? I would assume sidewalks. Do you allow them to ride their bikes across intersections or do you make them walk them across? I would assume you have them walk their bikes across... Ok, so what if you started to let that slide and eventually they become complacent about checking both directions and and one day one of your kids gets hit by and oncoming car...it's not such a small deal anymore.... The same thing applies here.... [/quote] So, you're saying that khaki shorts + polo = a child being run over by a car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iheartjp2 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308605659' post='2256475'] So, just doing the mimimum is acceptable...? Interesting... [/quote] You know, I think the minimum gets a bad rap. Isn't the fact that its the minimum make it part of the spectrum of acceptability? Since when is doing what you're supposed to do and ONLY what you're supposed to do considered bad, sinful, or irreverent? Wearing something that's presentable at mass should be considered a good minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 "... I'm in black slacks and a either a button down or a soft collared shirt, because I wear a cassock most weekends." Ummm... I'm trying to understand this. You wear a cassock most weekends - does that mean you're in the seminary? Or do you mean you wear a cassock while you're serving Mass? If you're in a seminary, is it an SSPX seminary? Because I remember you saying that you've been "assisting at" SSPX Mass lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308608760' post='2256512'] If by "minimum" you mean donning clothing that glorifies Him, sure. I doubt very much that He's got much concern about what fashion is considered "appropriate" by contemporary standards. Because, if the standard is slacks and a dress shirt, that might be considered by some to be too informal, and that a tie and a jacket is better. Of course, there might be some that believe that a certain style of jacket glorifies Him more than others, or that He has an opinion regarding the correct shade of fuschia or the pattern of the tie or its length or knot-type. Nah, something tells me that He just looks at my heart and not the logo on my chest. [/quote] I'm not talking about fashion. I'm talking about appropriateness. I could care less if you are wearing Joseph Aboud or Men's Wearhouse. The idea is that you're dressing properly for the King of the Universe. At no time in history has there been a movement toward the "informal" as there is today. What shows that you're taking the Sacrifice of the Mass seriously? T-shirt, shorts and Nike Shox or a dress shirt, slacks and a pair of dress shoes? I don't think that the former does...but rather the latter. There are standards of dress which can be considered objective, so to relegate it to simply the subjective 100% of the time doesn't do. Matthew 23:3-5 [quote] All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men's shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes. [/quote] So, what Christ is saying is that if you dress up for man, then it is wrong, but if you dress up for the Lord it is laudable. Observe and do. The Church has always taught that we should look our best, this has been borne out through statements of bishops, priests and learned laymen. I have even posted as much on this thread....We should follow the command of Christ and dress to meet the Lord, not because we are seeking "fashion," but rather because it glorifies God. So, we should dress the very best we can to go to Mass. I daresay that the vast majority of people can come up with slacks and an oxford, with a pair of dress shoes. Also, this applies to women to dress in the same manner as appropriate to their mode of dress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If I am not mistaken, [b]Cam[/b] is no longer in seminary, but does serve at mass (as an altar server). So, his clothes would not be visible as he's wearing liturgical garb anyway. As to what and where, you'll have to wait for his response. [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308615744' post='2256577'] At no time in history has there been a movement toward the "informal" as there is today. [/quote] At no time in history and in no culture but our own have anyone but the dead posh elite had anything near the options and nuances of our wardrobes. For most of history, the poor have had two outfits - one to wear and one to wash. Often, it was not even made for them originally, but an altered hand-me-down. The very poor had only one outfit and never washed it nor bathed. Yes, the wealthy have always had fashion and could dress up with pomp and circumstance for fitting occasions, both sacred and secular. Ditto with the military, having different versions of the uniform for different occasions. But your average person? Not so much. The concept of 'Sunday best' is a good one, but we must not pretend that it is ancient or medieval. It isn't. It's...well, quite modern, though I include the entire history of the United States in 'modern'. If you have a few outfits, the 'nice' one is the one you wear to church, and the 'old' one is the one you wear to do chores or work in the fields. As the nice one gets worn out, it moves down the hierarchy and is replaced with the newest outfit. The idea that every member of society has a wide range of outfits which can be switched out more than once a day (if necessary) to engage in a wide range of activities...is a symptom of modern American culture. People take fancy clothes for granted, and don't bother dressing up as often. Trust me, if you're poor and don't want people to look down on you for it, you'll make sure you're wearing as nice an outfit as everyone else. Even if you have to skip a few meals or be late with the rent payment or get your phone disconnected, your kids are going to have brand new name brand sneakers. If you aren't poor? Well, what do you have to prove? You can look as sloppy as you want and not care what others think of you for it. It's a...luxury that comes from taking our big closets full of clothes for granted. A societal ill. It's no wonder it comes out at a public event like mass attendance. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort to do something about that, of course. When preaching about reverence, it would make sense to mention specific actions we can take to [i]show[/i] our reverence for holy mysteries, such as dressing up for mass, genuflecting before entering the pew, making the sign of cross with holy water when entering or leaving a church, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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