A Civilized And Focused Discussion On Life Teen

[Cam42]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308594349' post='2256368']
Some of ya'll sound like Pharisees when it comes to how austere you expect everyone to be.
[/quote]

Really? I don't think so. I'm not calling attention to myself when I am asking others to dress appropriately. See, that is the flaw in your argument.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308594349' post='2256368']
Some of ya'll sound like Pharisees when it comes to how austere you expect everyone to be.
[/quote]
When you get married, wouldn't you be maybe just a bit offended or put out if your best friends all show up to the ceremony wearing ripped jeans and Tapout t-shirts?
[img]http://todouche.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/db-tapout.jpg[/img]

Yeah, maybe it was circumstances beyond their control. It's possible. However, if it was a choice on their part, what sort of message are they sending? This was just any other weekend for them and they honestly could not be bothered to dress any differently than they normally do.
Yet a single Mass, weekday or Sunday, the most solemn feast or the most obscure, is more important and more miraculous than every wedding ever celebrated put together.

[AudreyGrace]

I think putting an effort into how we dress for Mass is important, because we will be in the presence of God. I almost always try my hardest to try and find something nice to wear, and even though I don't have a closet full of Sunday dresses, I think God knows my heart's intent and my financial situation, and is grateful that I try to look better for Mass than I do for school, cleaning, hanging out, etc. I do get a little upset when I see girls in Mass with short shorts and t-shirts on. Just last Saturday, a girl in front of me was wearing them, and her shirt was tied up in the back so you could just see her lower back. I told her I was going to pull it down to cover it, and I did. There's a difference between dressing immodest and dressing informal. Sometimes, I have to dress informally because I don't have a dress lying around I can wear, but I'll still clean up and look modest. I think the big question here is, how do we implement modest dress in Mass? Have ushers at the doors to verify whether or not someone is dressed suitably for Mass? In that case, it would be like the pharisees kujo alluded to. I also see where he's coming from, because simply saying that people dressed a certain way should not go to Mass and whatnot is a covert reflection on how oneself dresses for Mass, portraying a "pharisee attitude."

[iheartjp2]

Well, it seems that this thread on Life Teen has become a war of the liturgical fashionistas. Since I looked through a good amount of the thread, I thought "heck, why don't I throw my two cents into the pot, too?"

Trying to guess someone's intent based on how they dress is extremely superficial, unnecessary, and diverts focus away from what should be the focal point of the mass. Dress at mass today in general I think is blown out of proportion at best and shallow at worst. If you don't like what someone has on (granted it's modest and nothings hanging out of it that shouldn't be), it's kinda your problem.

No matter how your dressed, you should come to mass having been prepared to participate in it. If dressing a certain way makes you "feel" something, or I don't know, makes you behave a certain way, there must be something HUGE that I'm completely missing. The past two years during the school year, I've been a section leader in a choir at a Congregationalist church. That job required me to dress nicely even though I had a choir robe on. Afterward when I would go to mass, I would have nice clothes on. I didn't feel different at all than when I wore the clothes I always wear. Anybody who saw me could think that I was dressing for mass or they could think I was dressing vainly, OR they could think nothing at all. Personally, I didn't really dress FOR mass, but for my job beforehand and even if someone saw that I was dressed nicely and thought I did it for mass, they would be wrong. All that I know is that I personally don't prefer to dress up. Ever. The clothes don't make me feel comfortable and I'd rather wear jeans and a t-shirt (albeit, clean and nice jeans and t-shirts they are). I went to an opera just this weekend (I'm an opera singer in training and an avid opera viewer). I walked into the theater wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and flip-flops. Of course I was underdressed, but 1) I wasn't the only one and 2) For all the vanity that is in the world, not one person cared how I looked. I find it ironic that the opposite would be true if I had walked into a church.

If someone walks into a church for mass and they're wearing nice clothes but their heart isn't in the right place, how can they be automatically considered more reverent than someone wearing whatever they will (that isn't especially nice), but have come with the correct intent? To me, focusing on what people wear at mass serves no better purpose than focusing what someone else is wearing anywhere else. "That's not appropriate", "It doesn't really suit the occasion", "Couldn't you have put on something nicer". Call me cynical, but from what I've experienced of the world and the people in it, no one is so high minded and pure as to actually think that they care about every little detail concerning someone else (especially their appearance) without some selfish, self-serving, self-centered motive behind it (that is, having a bull-headed idea about everything and everyone). Personally, the whole issue has been blown out of proportion. If you ask me, there are certainly other issues the Church should be focusing on BESIDES Life Teen or the way people dress, like, say...PR issues.

Edited June 20, 2011 by iheartjp2

[Cam42]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1308596692' post='2256388']
I think putting an effort into how we dress for Mass is important, because we will be in the presence of God. I almost always try my hardest to try and find something nice to wear, and even though I don't have a closet full of Sunday dresses, I think God knows my heart's intent and my financial situation, and is grateful that I try to look better for Mass than I do for school, cleaning, hanging out, etc. I do get a little upset when I see girls in Mass with short shorts and t-shirts on. Just last Saturday, a girl in front of me was wearing them, and her shirt was tied up in the back so you could just see her lower back. I told her I was going to pull it down to cover it, and I did. There's a difference between dressing immodest and dressing informal. Sometimes, I have to dress informally because I don't have a dress lying around I can wear, but I'll still clean up and look modest. I think the big question here is, how do we implement modest dress in Mass? Have ushers at the doors to verify whether or not someone is dressed suitably for Mass? In that case, it would be like the pharisees kujo alluded to. I also see where he's coming from, because simply saying that people dressed a certain way should not go to Mass and whatnot is a covert reflection on how oneself dresses for Mass, portraying a "pharisee attitude."
[/quote]

No, but I shouldn't go to Mass expecting to see what you described. And I do, well, I did, until I started assisting at a Traditional Latin Mass full time. Now the most immodest thing I will see is a golf shirt on a man and a pair of slacks on a woman, occasionally.

While I understand that not everyone has the wherewithal to have a closet full of Sunday best, the idea is that you do have a Sunday best, so that you can pull it out and wear it on Sunday. I own about 7 suits. That was not always the case. I built that up over time, due to the industry I'm in as well as the desire to look good as well as portray a more formal sense of attire for certain occasions, including Holy Mass. I get picked on about it from my family....my brother is pretty relentless, but then again, he's a lapse Catholic....and often times, I'm in black slacks and a either a button down or a soft collared shirt, because I wear a cassock most weekends. But nobody knows how I'm dressed under the cassock. In the summer, I will often have shorts on, but I can guarantee you that I have dress socks and black shoes on, so that you would not know any differently. If I were not in cassock, I would be in suit coat and tie, as I said....

Realistically, it must be a grass roots movement and we cannot be afraid to say something. If we are going to stand up for our Catholic Culture, then we have to stand up for our Catholic Culture. Part of that culture is dressing appropriately. Look back to the words of Bishop Nickless....as a parting note, I will add this...all through college, I had a very good friend, jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) knows her too, who used to wear the same outfit to Mass every single Sunday. Why? Because as she said, those were her "Sunday goin' to church clothes"...she wasn't rich, but went to a school where rich kids went. She wasn't being Pharisaical, but I can guarantee you, she had the proper understanding of the importance of looking her best for the King of the Universe, even when most of the rest of her peers were in jeans and t-shirts...

All we have to do as Catholics is make the effort. It isn't hard. But it is a commitment. And that commitment is a good one, because it is done for the Greater Glory of God and not to fit in or to be trendy or to facilitate ease of the moment.

[Cam42]

[quote name='iheartjp2' timestamp='1308598502' post='2256394']
Well, it seems that this thread on Life Teen has become a war of the liturgical fashionistas. Since I looked through a good amount of the thread, I thought "heck, why don't I throw my two cents into the pot, too?"

Judging someone's intent based on how they dress is extremely superficial, unnecessary, and diverts focus away from what should be the focal point of the mass. If you don't like what someone has on (granted it's modest and nothings hanging out of it that shouldn't be), it's kinda your problem.

No matter how your dressed, you should come to mass having been prepared to participate in it. If dressing a certain way makes you "feel" something, or I don't know, makes you behave a certain way, there must be something HUGE that I'm completely missing. All that I know is that I personally don't prefer to dress up. Ever. The clothes don't make me feel comfortable and I'd rather wear jeans and a t-shirt (albeit, clean and nice jeans and t-shirts they are). If someone walks into a church for mass and they're wearing nice clothes but their heart isn't in the right place, how can they be automatically considered more reverent than someone wearing whatever they will (that isn't especially nice), but have come with the correct intent. To me, focusing on what people wear at mass serves no better purpose than focusing what someone else is wearing anywhere else. "That's not appropriate", "It doesn't really suit the occasion", "Couldn't you have put on something nicer". It really just seems rather stupid to me, and call me cynical, but from what I've experienced of the world and the people in it, no one is so high minded and pure as to actually think that they care about every little detail concerning someone else (especially their appearance) without some selfish, self-serving, self-centered motive behind it (that is, having a bull-headed idea about everything and everyone). Personally, the whole issue has been blown out of proportion. If you ask me, there are certainly other issues the Church should be focusing on BESIDES Life Teen or the way people dress, like, say...PR issues.
[/quote]

This is a tangent thread based upon a statement I made about the importance of dressing appropriately. I made the statement with regard to lifeteen, because I witnessed lifeteen Masses where kids were dressed immodestly and informally. I disagree with the OP's premise and I think that his position is unjustifiable. So, I am making my case for dressing appropriately for Mass.

[Lil Red]

a woman wearing slacks is not immodest.

[MithLuin]

Yes, it's the 'enforcement' that is at issue. Changing people's bad habits is a pastoral issue, and there's more than one way to go about it. There [i]are[/i] churches where someone will stand at the door and turn you away if you are not dressed appropriately (ie, knees and shoulders covered). You will be in for a rude awakening if you try to just bop in to a church in Rome w/o having the appropriate attire. It's understood that those are the rules - it's posted. And there are cultures where showing up in jeans and a t-shirt is considered extremely rude, so no one would even think of doing it. As I said earlier in this thread, just [i]try[/i] showing up for Sunday mass dressed that way at an African-American parish. You will feel such a fool! (Not saying that black teens never wear jeans to mass - just pointing out more serious social pressure not to do so.)

[img]http://www.saintambrose.com/images4/easter12.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.saintambrose.com/images4/easter17.JPG[/img]

The problem is places where there is very little cultural pressure to dress up already, so few people do. In those cases....you have to make the effort to educate people about reverence. Analogies to a wedding or meeting an important person can help drive home to people [i]why[/i] they should make that effort...but only if they understand what the mass actually [i]is[/i] first. There are much deeper issues behind the casual/cavalier attitude of some churchgoers. If the person in question doesn't believe that the Eucharist is really Jesus, I'm thinking that worrying about his jeans is a side issue that can wait.

There was a teenage girl at the noon mass I attended today. She was alone (ie, drove herself), and she was wearing t-shirt, shorts and sneakers. She looked like she was dressed to go for a run, and quite possibly she was before or after mass. She stayed after mass to sit in the pew and pray silently, while most of the adults filed out nearly immediately.

So, is it bad that she didn't dress up? If mass was all she was doing that day, and she couldn't be bothered to put on nicer clothes, then maybe. But it seemed [i]far[/i] more likely that she was taking a break from other activities to attend the holy sacrifice of the mass. I'm not going to question her devotion or understanding of the Eucharist when I don't even know her. Nothing about her [i]behavior[/i] spoke of disrespect for the sacrament. If it was a choice between not dressing up or not attending mass...then I'm glad she came to mass.

And since the gospel reading was about the plank in your own eye vs the speck in your neighbor's, I was definitely feeling convicted for even noticing/speculating on her motivations .


So, first and foremost, set a good example by your own modest and respectable clothing choices. And, when appropriate, encourage others to do the same. If it's the 'norm' to dress casually, people will continue to do so. If it's the norm to dress up...more people will do that to fit in. If you want to change the norm....that takes catechesis and a concerted effort. It won't 'just happen.' Mentioning how what we wear speaks about us from the pulpit and connecting it to devotion and reverence can certainly help.

[iheartjp2]

Just a heads-up, I slightly edited my reply. I thought it would be appropriate to say this because I was quoted in a reply by Cam42 from the post I had originally submitted.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308599302' post='2256400']
a woman wearing slacks is not immodest.
[/quote]

It depends on your point of view, now doesn't it? I didn't say that I don't tolerate it...

[Cam42]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1308599564' post='2256401']
Yes, it's the 'enforcement' that is at issue. Changing people's bad habits is a pastoral issue, and there's more than one way to go about it. There [i]are[/i] churches where someone will stand at the door and turn you away if you are not dressed appropriately (ie, knees and shoulders covered). You will be in for a rude awakening if you try to just bop in to a church in Rome w/o having the appropriate attire. It's understood that those are the rules - it's posted. And there are cultures where showing up in jeans and a t-shirt is considered extremely rude, so no one would even think of doing it. As I said earlier in this thread, just [i]try[/i] showing up for Sunday mass dressed that way at an African-American parish. You will feel such a fool! (Not saying that black teens never wear jeans to mass - just pointing out more serious social pressure not to do so.)

[img]http://www.saintambrose.com/images4/easter12.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.saintambrose.com/images4/easter17.JPG[/img]

The problem is places where there is very little cultural pressure to dress up already, so few people do. In those cases....you have to make the effort to educate people about reverence. Analogies to a wedding or meeting an important person can help drive home to people [i]why[/i] they should make that effort...but only if they understand what the mass actually [i]is[/i] first. There are much deeper issues behind the casual/cavalier attitude of some churchgoers. If the person in question doesn't believe that the Eucharist is really Jesus, I'm thinking that worrying about his jeans is a side issue that can wait.

There was a teenage girl at the noon mass I attended today. She was alone (ie, drove herself), and she was wearing t-shirt, shorts and sneakers. She looked like she was dressed to go for a run, and quite possibly she was before or after mass. She stayed after mass to sit in the pew and pray silently, while most of the adults filed out nearly immediately.

So, is it bad that she didn't dress up? If mass was all she was doing that day, and she couldn't be bothered to put on nicer clothes, then maybe. But it seemed [i]far[/i] more likely that she was taking a break from other activities to attend the holy sacrifice of the mass. I'm not going to question her devotion or understanding of the Eucharist when I don't even know her. Nothing about her [i]behavior[/i] spoke of disrespect for the sacrament. If it was a choice between not dressing up or not attending mass...then I'm glad she came to mass.

And since the gospel reading was about the plank in your own eye vs the speck in your neighbor's, I was definitely feeling convicted for even noticing/speculating on her motivations .


So, first and foremost, set a good example by your own modest and respectable clothing choices. And, when appropriate, encourage others to do the same. If it's the 'norm' to dress casually, people will continue to do so. If it's the norm to dress up...more people will do that to fit in. If you want to change the norm....that takes catechesis and a concerted effort. It won't 'just happen.' Mentioning how what we wear speaks about us from the pulpit and connecting it to devotion and reverence can certainly help.
[/quote]

And yet the priest in the pictures has no socks on!!!! OMDG!!!! What is the world coming tooo!!!!! ROFLOL!!! Just kidding...

[MithLuin]

Haha, that is a Franciscan parish, which might explain why he is wearing sandals!

[Cam42]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1308601123' post='2256418']
Haha, that is a Franciscan parish, which might explain why he is wearing sandals!
[/quote]

Looks like Nativity Parish in St. Paul, MN....same architecture....but Nativity is about as whitebread as you can get.

[MithLuin]

It's St. Ambrose in Park Heights in Baltimore.

[media]http://vimeo.com/15050781[/media]

Edited June 20, 2011 by MithLuin

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308589315' post='2256334']
Why would you not want to stand on formality for the King of the Universe? Would you go to a wedding in shorts and a polo? Would you go see the President? Would you go see the Pope (I can answer that one for your already....)?

Yet, it's ok to be informal at Mass.....IDGI.
[/quote]
I did not say that one [i]should[/i] be informal at mass, did I? I just said that there is a difference. In my many years of experience at PM and the many, many threads on this subject, I have learned that people equate immodesty and informality. They are not the same. One can be very modest and informal or very dressy and immodest. I find immodesty distracting (even for me-- a middle-aged woman). I don't find informality distracting. I think if/when I'm tempted to be distracted by a person's informal clothes, I need to refocus my attention elsewhere. Immodesty, on the other hand, is intended to draw attention. I'm not going to judge a family with tweens and teens in informal attire. Honestly, it's not a battle I would want to fight because in this day and age it is so very, very easy to have young people walk out of the Church and never come back. I would not judge a parent for allowing a middle ground. I'm sure you will disagree with me. It's always easy for those who do not have to deal with these situations to judge.