Cam42 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1308330482' post='2255095'] There are so many things wrong at the root of this post it really needs no defense from Catholics here and it is a waste of a great mind, the person behind which has done and could do so much good for the Church. The worst part about this post is the injustice it does to those who love the Traditional practices of the Catholic faith, like those who run Life Teen parishes. I will pray that it does not turn more people away from the Extraordinary Form or the Catholic faith. [/quote] You're absolutely right!!! There are so many things wrong at the root of this post. But I need to be more accepting of other's views, so I am being more accepting of other's views. That is what was intimated to me, so that is EXACTLY what I am doing. Thanks for pointing that out. You're a scholar (pun intended) and a gentleman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Regarding how we are to dress whilst assisting at Holy Mass, I would have you look to Bishop R. Walker Nickless and what he has to say: [quote] We can be immodest in our [b]dress[/b],trying to be fashionable and trendy. We sometimes wear clothes that are dirty or too revealing and immodest even to Mass. Our casual daily summer attire is not appropriate for this great celebration of our faith. Coming to Mass should always be special and we need to dress appropriately for this special time of worship.In our reverence for Christ our Lord,and in our respect for one another,[b]we must not settle for the vice of immodesty as the norm[/b]. The virtues of humility and modesty are gifts of the Holy Spirit,part of what we celebrate this Sunday on the Solemnity of Pentecost. Let us be grateful for these gifts and all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are rich blessings;let us use them always for the greater honor and glory of God. [/quote] I think that pretty well backs up my position on how we should be viewing attire for Holy Mass. T-shirts and shorts are not appropriate for "this great celebration of our faith." [url="http://www.courageouspriest.com/category/bishop-r-walker-nickless"]source[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307998446' post='2253306'] Certainly, people should be encouraged to dress up for mass. And there are places where it can be enforced - good luck getting into a church in Rome wearing shorts or a sleeveless shirt! Even as a tourist, you will be turned away at the door. But in general, I don't think it's appropriate for us to play fashion police with each other. We don't know if someone was traveling, en route to work, had no clean clothes except this outfit, had to change right before mass because someone threw up on their dress clothes, etc. They made their choices...and then came to mass. They're here now. Great! For daily mass especially, I feel very strongly that it's a 'come as you are' invitation. Dressing up for Sunday mass is nice, and I make the effort to unless circumstances conspire against me. But if someone doesn't think my hair is neat enough...that's kinda sorta their problem. If someone wants to emphasize the importance of respect at mass, including in how we dress, from the pulpit or in a religious ed class, that's fine and good. But what we come to mass for are the sacraments. As long as people understand that...they'll accept the reason for the hoopla of dressing up whether they like it or not. So, there's no need to put the cart before the horse there. Enforcing the details of reverence without encouraging the spirit of reverence in the first place would be...silly. [/quote] No one's disagreeing that's it's a good idea to dress up for mass. The question is...what do you do about it when people show up wearing something else? If everyone in the church is dressed nicely, they'll feel out of place in casual clothes and either won't wear that again or won't come back. If it's widespread, you need catechesis, which this bishop is addressing. If there's a lack of reverence...you have a bigger problem than t-shirts and jackets with sports team logos, and should address [i]that[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I believe there is a difference between immodest and informal. I agree that immodest clothing-- halter tops, bikinis (sad I even need to mention them in this context), short shorts, etc are immodest and not appropriate. A polo shirt and long cargo shorts are not immodest. You may argue that they are informal, but they aren't immodest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1307814230' post='2252382'] I do not buy into this. There is and will always be a time and a place for dressing up. Youth still dress up for proms, formals, dances, graduation, special occasions and holidays, going out to dinner, and to impress each other when going out on dates. How important is the mass in comparison to things like this? Now I'm not saying that it's necessary to wear a prom dress or that expensive clothing is necessary for mass, but I don't think putting a little effort into looking nice for an hour out of our week is too much to ask for if we can help it. Taking care into our dress and appearance for mass and worrying about ourselves on the inside does not have to be mutually exclusive. If you are dressing up NOT out of impressing parishioners but to show love, respect and reverence to God, his house of worship, and his mass, then yes, I do think that is pleasing to God. We don't need to dress sloppy, wear shorts and flip flops to mass to be welcoming and attractive to newcomers. I think on the flip side, if someone wants to dress nicely for mass or wear chapel veils or what have you, don't judge them by assuming they are stuffy people that judge you in return for what you are wearing. [/quote] Agreed. And of course here the kids all wear uniforms to school and look nice, so why not look nice for Mass? Obviously I wouldn't think poorly of a person who isn't dressed up - I've definitely worn jeans to daily Mass (and Sunday Mass when I was pregnant). [quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1307890839' post='2252760'] I absolutely agree that kids to view it as graduation, and this is sad. Much of this I blame a combination of things, a combination of both sins and weaknesses in the Church and the darkness and folly of the times in general, like how much we are bombarded with mental consumerist Lady Caca junk food in our day to day lives outside of the brief moments we spend at our parish. As the problem is caused by multiple things, the solution will probably have to involve multiple things. I think as time goes by the Church may undergo what JP2 called a qualitative renewal rather than quantitative for the time being. But it will be interesting to see what happens, as more and more I think the world is becoming hostile and at odds with authentic Christianity. [/quote] I'm really liking that my diocese is putting Confirmation before First Communion again. Maybe it won't be seen as a graduation as much, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1308585159' post='2256319'] Agreed. And of course here the kids all wear uniforms to school and look nice, so why not look nice for Mass? Obviously I wouldn't think poorly of a person who isn't dressed up - I've definitely worn jeans to daily Mass (and Sunday Mass when I was pregnant). I'm really liking that my diocese is putting Confirmation before First Communion again. Maybe it won't be seen as a graduation as much, I don't know. [/quote] Where I live I think they do it in about 8th grade, and even that is nice, because they still do religious ed and youth ministry stuff for the kids afterwards, so they are kind of saying, "Hey, you're not finished, yet!" Where I grew up, confirmation was in 11th grade and after that, while they still had some youth ministry things for all the high schoolers in general, any religious ed stuff was just supposed to be with the adults, so it was kind of saying, "Okay, you're an adult now, do what you want." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1308579544' post='2256306'] I believe there is a difference between immodest and informal. I agree that immodest clothing-- halter tops, bikinis (sad I even need to mention them in this context), short shorts, etc are immodest and not appropriate. A polo shirt and long cargo shorts are not immodest. You may argue that they are informal, but they aren't immodest. [/quote] Why would you not want to stand on formality for the King of the Universe? Would you go to a wedding in shorts and a polo? Would you go see the President? Would you go see the Pope (I can answer that one for your already....)? Yet, it's ok to be informal at Mass.....IDGI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308589315' post='2256334'] Why would you not want to stand on formality for the King of the Universe? Would you go to a wedding in shorts and a polo? Would you go see the President? Would you go see the Pope (I can answer that one for your already....)? Yet, it's ok to be informal at Mass.....IDGI. [/quote] I can't speak to the Pope and the President, but I have seen people dress very informally for weddings. I do think there are some people who genuinely don't find a problem with the informal thing, and would only dress up more for the Pres. or Pope because it would be required of them, not because they would willingly chose it on their own. I'm not saying that it makes it acceptable for Mass, just that this line of reasoning wouldn't work with a lot of people, because they wouldn't dress up for those other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1308589583' post='2256337'] I can't speak to the Pope and the President, but I have seen people dress very informally for weddings. I do think there are some people who genuinely don't find a problem with the informal thing, and would only dress up more for the Pres. or Pope because it would be required of them, not because they would willingly chose it on their own. I'm not saying that it makes it acceptable for Mass, just that this line of reasoning wouldn't work with a lot of people, because they wouldn't dress up for those other things. [/quote] Shouldn't they be required to dress up for Holy Mass? What would be so wrong with putting that stipulation out there? I don't think any, unless of course, it would cause people to stop going to Mass and if that is the reason they stop going; well the issue is bigger than proper attire for Mass, isn't it? Informality with regard to the Mass is another direct result of the hermeneutic of discontinuity. Bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308590004' post='2256342'] Shouldn't they be required to dress up for Holy Mass? What would be so wrong with putting that stipulation out there? I don't think any, unless of course, it would cause people to stop going to Mass and if that is the reason they stop going; well the issue is bigger than proper attire for Mass, isn't it? Informality with regard to the Mass is another direct result of the hermeneutic of discontinuity. Bottom line. [/quote] I don't disagree that people shouldn't be dressing informally. I'm just not sure how practically one could put into effect a measure of formality that wouldn't end up being more of a hindrance to many people. And I'm not sure how that could be objectively applied. I don't think it's just a Catholic thing. I think society in general has a hard time with formal dress, in particular formal dress that is also modest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1308590420' post='2256344'] I don't disagree that people shouldn't be dressing informally. I'm just not sure how practically one could put into effect a measure of formality that wouldn't end up being more of a hindrance to many people. And I'm not sure how that could be objectively applied. I don't think it's just a Catholic thing. I think society in general has a hard time with formal dress, in particular formal dress that is also modest. [/quote] If it has to be grass roots, then it should be started by the parishoners of like mind. Find those who are supportive, ask Father to preach about it. Then start to change the culture. It can be done...the culture was changed to the bad, so why not start a change back? Sometimes it comes down to us making the change....when I am not in a cassock, I am a tie and suit coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308591072' post='2256352'] Sometimes it comes down to us making the change....when I am not in a cassock, I am a tie and suit coat. [/quote] Is it a bow tie? [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vsEk8uDcNsM/TffaG7OL9jI/AAAAAAAAAZI/deZ9fcP-6BE/s1600/IMG_0336.JPG[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308591400' post='2256354'] Is it a bow tie? [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vsEk8uDcNsM/TffaG7OL9jI/AAAAAAAAAZI/deZ9fcP-6BE/s1600/IMG_0336.JPG[/img] [/quote] Prolly not...I don't look good in bow ties.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308591522' post='2256356'] Prolly not...I don't look good in bow ties.... [/quote] That's a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Some of ya'll sound like Pharisees when it comes to how austere you expect everyone to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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