A Civilized And Focused Discussion On Life Teen

[TeresaBenedicta]

Lifeteen is what you (or the parish or the youth minister) make of it. Lax dress is not essential to Lifeteen anymore than heretical doctrine is. Every once in a while I go to a Lifeteen Mass at a neighboring parish on Sunday evenings when I can't make it to Mass earlier in the day. The kids are dressed nicely. The music is well done. There's a heck of a lot of unnecessary EMHCs, but what can I do?

All that I mean to say is that a good Lifeteen program can be run with or without focus on dress code. Now, obviously it'd be great if there was some focus on it. And that can easily be fit into it. Frankly... if the program is effective, it'll happen naturally. In general, the more you understand the Mass and the more you love the Eucharist, the more you'll see the importance of dressing nicely.

[tinytherese]

It seems like people have a problem with Life Teen Masses but not the curriculum of the organization.

Catholics are neither required to like or dislike Life Teen, so long as no one is a jerk to those who have a different opinion than their own.

Not everything is everyone's cup of tea.

[Ash Wednesday]

I actually found a pretty interesting video on music in the mass and they point out church documents regarding how music is meant to be used -- but would I be opening a pretty ugly can of worms if I post it? Some topics around here as we know tend to make the mods groan and roll their eyes ("not again!")

I wouldn't post it in this thread because it isn't an issue that's exclusively about LifeTeen. But it was genuinely an interesting video to me.

I guess I haven't been paying attention, is the question of liturgical music....still pretty much a..... these days?

Edited June 12, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[Lil Red]

ash, i'd be interested.

[AudreyGrace]

i've read a lot about how life teen "doesn't catechize the youth." since nobody seems to care if one person says that they have experienced catechesis through Life Teen, I figured I'd share a general from-the-source video.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYumBRKrG8s&feature=channel_video_title[/media]


Promoting vocations..
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT-fB8mgCCU&feature=channel_video_title[/media]

[AudreyGrace]

This one promotes the use and importance of the Catechism, scapular, rosaries, Scriptures, etc:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu4XDYgBvvo&feature=channel_video_title[/media]

[Jaime]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1307906988' post='2252814']
This one promotes the use and importance of the Catechism, scapular, rosaries, Scriptures, etc:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu4XDYgBvvo&feature=channel_video_title[/media]
[/quote]

I like that

[MithLuin]

Dress code.


Certainly, people should be encouraged to dress up for mass. And there are places where it can be enforced - good luck getting into a church in Rome wearing shorts or a sleeveless shirt! Even as a tourist, you will be turned away at the door.

But in general, I don't think it's appropriate for us to play fashion police with each other. We don't know if someone was traveling, en route to work, had no clean clothes except this outfit, had to change right before mass because someone threw up on their dress clothes, etc. They made their choices...and then came to mass. They're here now. Great! For daily mass especially, I feel very strongly that it's a 'come as you are' invitation. Dressing up for Sunday mass is nice, and I make the effort to unless circumstances conspire against me. But if someone doesn't think my hair is neat enough...that's kinda sorta their problem.

If someone wants to emphasize the importance of respect at mass, including in how we dress, from the pulpit or in a religious ed class, that's fine and good. But what we come to mass for are the sacraments. As long as people understand that...they'll accept the reason for the hoopla of dressing up whether they like it or not. So, there's no need to put the cart before the horse there. Enforcing the details of reverence without encouraging the spirit of reverence in the first place would be...silly.


And it's cultural, too. I [i]dare[/i] you to wear jeans and a t-shirt to an African-American parish. You will feel like such an idiot for being underdressed. Whereas in the rural parish where I grew up? Yeah, you'll fit in just fine, especially on a Sat. afternoon. And no, we didn't have LifeTeen. We had a part-time youth minister who ran a variety of programs - some social (movie/pizza nights), some faith-sharing (the lasting friendships were formed there), and some service (workcamp in the summer, etc). Some youth participated in the mass as lectors, cantors, etc, but they weren't at particular masses.

[Steve]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307998446' post='2253306']
Dress code.


Certainly, people should be encouraged to dress up for mass. And there are places where it can be enforced - good luck getting into a church in Rome wearing shorts or a sleeveless shirt! Even as a tourist, you will be turned away at the door.

But in general, I don't think it's appropriate for us to play fashion police with each other. We don't know if someone was traveling, en route to work, had no clean clothes except this outfit, had to change right before mass because someone threw up on their dress clothes, etc. They made their choices...and then came to mass. They're here now. Great! For daily mass especially, I feel very strongly that it's a 'come as you are' invitation. Dressing up for Sunday mass is nice, and I make the effort to unless circumstances conspire against me. But if someone doesn't think my hair is neat enough...that's kinda sorta their problem.

If someone wants to emphasize the importance of respect at mass, including in how we dress, from the pulpit or in a religious ed class, that's fine and good. But what we come to mass for are the sacraments. As long as people understand that...they'll accept the reason for the hoopla of dressing up whether they like it or not. So, there's no need to put the cart before the horse there. Enforcing the details of reverence without encouraging the spirit of reverence in the first place would be...silly.


And it's cultural, too. I [i]dare[/i] you to wear jeans and a t-shirt to an African-American parish. You will feel like such an idiot for being underdressed. Whereas in the rural parish where I grew up? Yeah, you'll fit in just fine, especially on a Sat. afternoon. And no, we didn't have LifeTeen. We had a part-time youth minister who ran a variety of programs - some social (movie/pizza nights), some faith-sharing (the lasting friendships were formed there), and some service (workcamp in the summer, etc). Some youth participated in the mass as lectors, cantors, etc, but they weren't at particular masses.
[/quote]

THANK YOU. Well said and I completely agree.

[Ash Wednesday]

I don't think anyone is advocating anyone to personally police other people other clothing (unless someone is dressed so flagrantly immodestly that it's occasion to sin or they're dressing to disrupt the mass i.e. the rainbow sash movement). In general, people learn about the importance and meaning of sacraments and it makes them respond in conduct accordingly, people also see the reverence of others and it helps them to understand the importance of the sacraments. In my opinion it all goes hand in hand.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[sixpence]

I have never heard of LifeTeen... but this article seems relevant...

[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0105.html"]Link[/url]

A snippet:

"What made the Church attractive in the third century can make it just as attractive in the twenty-first. In the ancient world and in ours, young people want a challenge. They want to love with their whole being. They're willing to do things the hard way — if people they respect make the big demands. These are distinguishing marks of youth. You don't find too many middle-aged men petitioning the Marines for a long stay at Parris Island. It's young men who beg for that kind of rigor."

[Ash Wednesday]

Good article. (though I don't mind a good nature hike but I know they're just more or less saying things shouldn't be watered down.)

In the end, I think history will be the judge and will determine what will work with youth and what won't. Strong parents, family values and family units come into play as well. Parents can't just dump their kids off at religious education classes or youth ministries and leave it all up to them. I don't know how it is with teens now, but with my peers and the kids I knew in the past, for the most part, it was the parents that really laid down the law in the home (but with love) and lived the faith 24/7 whose kids have grown up and more or less stayed with the Church. But a lot of times classmates were just dumped off at the youth group to "keep them out of trouble" but the parents didn't always take them to mass and I don't think religion was actually discussed much in their homes otherwise (my home was a bit of a mixed bag...). And with so many broken families, that makes it hard, too. Prayers for our families and youth...

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1308240786' post='2254603']
I have never heard of LifeTeen... but this article seems relevant...

[url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0105.html"]Link[/url]

A snippet:

"What made the Church attractive in the third century can make it just as attractive in the twenty-first. In the ancient world and in ours, young people want a challenge. They want to love with their whole being. They're willing to do things the hard way — if people they respect make the big demands. These are distinguishing marks of youth. You don't find too many middle-aged men petitioning the Marines for a long stay at Parris Island. It's young men who beg for that kind of rigor."
[/quote]

Thank you, I think that article promotes Life Teen.

Remember, St. John Bosco juggled for the youth in the streets of his city. You do not have to be a stick in the mud to be a passionately faithful Catholic.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Steve' timestamp='1307778980' post='2252302']
First: Thank you tinytherese. Those are some very good points and I do agree to an extent.[color="#7D7D7D"][font="Tangerine, serif"] [/font][/color]

QUOTE FROM CAM42:

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#000080"]"No, do worry about clothes...Clothes have been and will be an important aspect of morality and modesty. The more you cover the less you have to worry about. There are times and places for shorts and t-shirts...Mass isn't one of them. IF we are a "Eucharistic People" (whatever that means) and the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Faith (which it is), wouldn't it only make sense that you would want to put your best foot forward in EVERYTHING? That would include dressing appropriately. Shorts and a t-shirt might be ok for a baseball game or some sporting event, but Mass? Really? It's too much to ask that "the youth" own a pair of slacks, an oxford shirt, and a pair of dress shoes/a nice knee length dress or skirt with sleeves and a pair of flats or some other appropriate footwear? It isn't. Even the poorest kid in America can come up with that....but we're not talking about that extreme are we? We're talking about suburban-ites....How we dress is important...it conveys the seriousness in how we will worship. If you dress in a more serious manner, then the liturgical action lends itself to a more serious atmosphere...and sadly, as has been shown in several youtube videos, vice versa....

I'm not sorry I got that in, it is important.

What is some of the "great material" that Life Teen provides. I'd like to see some of it. Is it online? Does it encompass the whole of the Catholic Faith or just the last 40 years? Does it teach about the great patrimony of Holy Mother Church or does it focus solely on the last 40 years? I'd like to know. It provides effective models for ministry...

You live in a small town. I don't think so...try coming to where I live. I grew up in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt,_IA"]town of 4500[/url]; my brother-in-law grew up in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargeant,_MN"]town of 61[/url]. The towns around mine average anywhere from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer,_IA"]21[/url]to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas,_IA"]1900[/url]. You don't live in a small town. You live in a small city, there's plenty to do...

See, that's the problem...Life Teen is about Protestant ideals...social issues and personal relationship with God. How about Life Teen being about promoting and embracing Catholic teaching and catechizing the youth on that? The wheel doesn't have to be re-invented. Young people aren't going to Life Teen. They are going to the Traditional Latin Mass. It's a proven fact. Tradition is winning the day...Life Teen is blase and it is a dated and flawed way of looking at how to minister to the youth. They don't like it. They want tradition.

You don't need to "take it down" for your youth, you need to challenge them. We live in the most advanced society in the world. Our youth can handle being taught Catholicism authentically. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventutem"]Juventutem[/url] might be a valid option, since Life Teen apparently didn't work.

And even though you're giving Life Teen the credit, it isn't going to be in your "small" town next year...

Life Teen is flawed and deficient. It runs on a Protestant model and it doesn't work. It does not speak to Catholic mentalities, it speaks to pop culture...that is not a model to base upon, especially when the target is a Church that has outlasted 2000 years of pop culture..." /End Quote[/color][/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]On the topic of dress code: I'm all for showing reverence and respect at mass. I agree that it is important to do so. BUT......[/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]But #1) I brought up the discussion about dress code into response to someone complaining about the dress code at there youth mass, saying that the T-shirts and shorts are specifically a problem. My response to that is that if you're going to call it a YOUTH mass, let it be a LITTLE youth friendly at least. A youth mass should not be just a kid or two doing the readings, bringing up the gifts, collecting and TADA you have a youth mass. Our youth these days tend to not like to dress up. We are dealing with kids who often A)Taught by the world and other Christian churches that there is something wrong with the Catholic Church B) Do not believe in Jesus Christ C) Do not even believe in God. Now I'm not sure if you know this, but the Catholic Church has a certain feeling of unwelcomingness (for lack of a better word) for non-Catholics and heck, even for many Catholics. Part has to do with the fact that to a newcomer the Catholic mass is intimidating. When you add the stuffiness and [/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]judgmental attitudes present it is a HUGE turn-off for kids that I finally am able to get to come experience the mass. I believe that deep down inside they come in search of God's love and are often met with nothing but judgement by his people. [/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]But#2) In a perfect world, clothes should be the last of our worries when coming before the Eucharist. It would be so much nicer if instead of worrying about clean clothes we should first worry, "Do I have a clean soul for mass?" You are about to receive Jesus when you go to mass. Does he have a nice place to reside? Do you go to confession immediately before receiving the Eucharist? The fact is you can do nothing but impress your fellow parishioners with nice clothes, if that's your goal great. But if you are planning on impressing God I don't think nice clothes are going to cut it. For some reason I don't think that clothes are on any priority list of Jesus'. [/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Great Material: [/size][/font][url="http://www.lifeteen.com/"]http://www.lifeteen.com/[/url], Website has just about everything they have to offer, and can answer all of your questions for you, if you take the time to look over the resources.

I'm sorry, Small city. All I know is that it's big enough to have major gang problems, and small enough to where the "good kids" go hang out at Baskin robins and Mcdonalds.


I'm sorry[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"] I didn't know that having a personal relationship with God was a protestant thing. I guess I must be at least part protestant than. [/color][color="#0000ff"]"[/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]Life Teen is about Protestant ideals...social issues and personal relationship with God." [/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]If you'll remember correctly I said that the Life Teen is all about promoting the Catholic faith and Catechizing the teens. In fact the reason why we are dropping it is because they do so. Our youth can't handle a lot of that stuff. (And for those who can we do have options for them). You'll have to introduce me to these young people who go to the traditional latin mass. I'm sure there are many out there, but it is not our youth.[/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"especially when the target is a Church that has outlasted 2000 years of pop culture... " [/color]Not sure if you've looked at any statistics lately, but the Catholic Church isn't on an upward slope or even staying constant in numbers. I have faith in God's church, and I know it will prevail, but if the trends WERE to stay constant, I would say the Church would not outlast 2200 years of pop culture. [/size][/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Lastly, I'm curious.....you know mine, but what are YOU'RE experiences and qualifications with Life Teen, and youth ministry in general.[/size][/font]
[/quote]

Hi Steve. I'm sorry that I took so long in responding to you, but I've been away. I won't do that again. I will make sure that I am here to respond to your questions and statements toward me going forward. You make a very compelling argument and I must say, I love you. You're right. I was wrong in everything that I said. There is no need to stand on any type of formality when going to Mass. We should just come to Jesus just as we are...it doesn't matter if we spend 15 hours in a bean field, we should come with our dirty boots, and matted down hair. It doesn't matter if we've been swimming, we should just come to Jesus in our swimsuits. Jesus don't care, he loves us as we are.

And you're right...at a Youth Mass, the youth should reign supreme. The kids shouldn't feel tied down by all the traditions of the Church. That doesn't make them feel loved. That makes them repress feelings that will come back to haunt them later in life...so I say let's bring out the t-shirts and shorts. I say that tube tops and flip flops should be the norm. You're right Steve. We don't need regression, we need progression in the Church. And dressing up is forcing the youth to be something they are not...so no more I say, no more!!!!

You're also right that clothes should not matter when we do Eucharist. Doing Eucharist is about being with Jesus. It isn't about the clothes we wear. I mean when Jesus was crucified, in all likelihood he was either naked or in a loin cloth, so there is no need for the people of God to dress up when they celebrate the Mass alongside the priest!!! They should just come as they are. I was wrong to insist that people show a formal respect by dressing up, because dressing up is so 1950s. It is outdated. Like I said, we shouldn't worry if our boots are dirty or if we are all sweaty from being in the fields toiling over soybeans. We shouldn't worry if we're coming right from a baseball game and are all dusty. Jesus don't care, he loves us as we are...

Doing Eucharist is about loving our neighbors...it isn't about making sure our part is perfect in our hair. Loving our neighbor means that we don't worry if the farmer next to us reeks of anhydrous ammonia or UAN. It means that we don't worry about the girl in the tube top and flip flops...we should just hold her hand as we both journey while doing the Eucharist.

As for Lifeteen, I've had a change of heart. Lifeteen is a wonderful way for the youth to do God. Doing God with friends and doing Eucharist with friends is important. And learning about God makes them happy, so we should make sure they have a good time....kids relate better when they can do God in their own way. The Church did it for 2000 years, but the youth of today don't understand all that stuff, so we should make sure that we're innovative and that we don't worry about the past. We don't need that to lean on, we're moving forward.

Lifeteen is amesome and I think that kids needs to have an amesome time at church....so they can go to their friends and tell them how amesome it was....then when they get confirmed they can take that amesome feeling out into the world in whatever manner they see fit. Because we shouldn't label Jesus...Jesus don't care, he loves us as we are....

Thanks for thinking of me when starting this thread....I love you for that....

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308325071' post='2255052']
Hi Steve. I'm sorry that I took so long in responding to you, but I've been away. I won't do that again. I will make sure that I am here to respond to your questions and statements toward me going forward. You make a very compelling argument and I must say, I love you. You're right. I was wrong in everything that I said. There is no need to stand on any type of formality when going to Mass. We should just come to Jesus just as we are...it doesn't matter if we spend 15 hours in a bean field, we should come with our dirty boots, and matted down hair. It doesn't matter if we've been swimming, we should just come to Jesus in our swimsuits. Jesus don't care, he loves us as we are.

And you're right...at a Youth Mass, the youth should reign supreme. The kids shouldn't feel tied down by all the traditions of the Church. That doesn't make them feel loved. That makes them repress feelings that will come back to haunt them later in life...so I say let's bring out the t-shirts and shorts. I say that tube tops and flip flops should be the norm. You're right Steve. We don't need regression, we need progression in the Church. And dressing up is forcing the youth to be something they are not...so no more I say, no more!!!!

You're also right that clothes should not matter when we do Eucharist. Doing Eucharist is about being with Jesus. It isn't about the clothes we wear. I mean when Jesus was crucified, in all likelihood he was either naked or in a loin cloth, so there is no need for the people of God to dress up when they celebrate the Mass alongside the priest!!! They should just come as they are. I was wrong to insist that people show a formal respect by dressing up, because dressing up is so 1950s. It is outdated. Like I said, we shouldn't worry if our boots are dirty or if we are all sweaty from being in the fields toiling over soybeans. We shouldn't worry if we're coming right from a baseball game and are all dusty. Jesus don't care, he loves us as we are...

Doing Eucharist is about loving our neighbors...it isn't about making sure our part is perfect in our hair. Loving our neighbor means that we don't worry if the farmer next to us reeks of anhydrous ammonia or UAN. It means that we don't worry about the girl in the tube top and flip flops...we should just hold her hand as we both journey while doing the Eucharist.

As for Lifeteen, I've had a change of heart. Lifeteen is a wonderful way for the youth to do God. Doing God with friends and doing Eucharist with friends is important. And learning about God makes them happy, so we should make sure they have a good time....kids relate better when they can do God in their own way. The Church did it for 2000 years, but the youth of today don't understand all that stuff, so we should make sure that we're innovative and that we don't worry about the past. We don't need that to lean on, we're moving forward.

Lifeteen is amesome and I think that kids needs to have an amesome time at church....so they can go to their friends and tell them how amesome it was....then when they get confirmed they can take that amesome feeling out into the world in whatever manner they see fit. Because we shouldn't label Jesus...Jesus don't care, he loves us as we are....

Thanks for thinking of me when starting this thread....I love you for that....
[/quote]

There are so many things wrong at the root of this post it really needs no defense from Catholics here and it is a waste of a great mind, the person behind which has done and could do so much good for the Church. The worst part about this post is the injustice it does to those who love the Traditional practices of the Catholic faith, like those who run Life Teen parishes. I will pray that it does not turn more people away from the Extraordinary Form or the Catholic faith.