A Civilized And Focused Discussion On Life Teen

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1311680685' post='2276135']
[font="Arial"][size="2"]No. I am inside the context. If I would have attended LT mass, with all its embellishments, for 5 years[8[sup]th[/sup]-12[sup]th[/sup]grades], I would have gotten accustomed to the LT mass as that is what mass is for me. Then when I move on to college and further on where there is no LT mass. What do I do if there is no LT mass around b/c I now require all the hip, upbeat music and youth physical involvement. I see this non-LT mass as a mundane, lack of enthusiasm mass. The mass is now foreign to me.[/size][/font]

[/quote]

I really don't think this is the case. Or, at least it doesn't have to be. LT's "embellishments" help to [i]teach[/i] young people how to participate in the Mass. Again, understanding the developmental needs and stages of a pre-teen to teen. Let's take the example of so-called praise and worship music used in LT Masses. Many of these songs, in their lyrics and musical qualities, help an individuals to offer themselves completely to God, to praise God, to adore God. Like training wheels. Properly chosen for the Mass, the use of this type of music can help teach teens how to truly actively participate in the Mass by making an offering of themselves, of praising God, of giving thanks. And, like training wheels, they are slowly raised and eventually removed.

If the Mass isn't taught, then yes... I can see what you're saying. But if there is good catechesis that accompanies the LT Mass, you will find that the teens make the transition with ease. In fact, I've found, that those who learned well from the LT Masses and catechesis, actually have transitioned into preferring more traditional music in Mass as they've grown older. They still like P&W outside of Mass. But they have come to recognize that they don't need that music to participate in the Mass.

Actually, your same argument can go for really good liturgy, too. When I came into the Church, my parish (the only parish I knew and ever attended) used some Latin, sang traditional hymns, and just had amesome liturgies. I remember the first time that I went to a Mass outside of my parish and the other parish held hands during the Our Father, sang awful songs, and stood during the Lamb of God. I actually turned to my friend and asked if this was a Catholic Mass. The externals were changed so much that "the Mass was foreign to me." I wasn't yet Catholic, although I was in RCIA, and I hadn't been taught the meaning of the Mass or how to truly participate in it. Now that I have learned both of those things, I can worship no matter the "externals".

[Papist]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311694816' post='2276212']
I really don't think this is the case. Or, at least it doesn't have to be. LT's "embellishments" help to [i]teach[/i] young people how to participate in the Mass. Again, understanding the developmental needs and stages of a pre-teen to teen. Let's take the example of so-called praise and worship music used in LT Masses. Many of these songs, in their lyrics and musical qualities, help an individuals to offer themselves completely to God, to praise God, to adore God. Like training wheels. Properly chosen for the Mass, the use of this type of music can help teach teens how to truly actively participate in the Mass by making an offering of themselves, of praising God, of giving thanks. And, like training wheels, they are slowly raised and eventually removed.

If the Mass isn't taught, then yes... I can see what you're saying. But if there is good catechesis that accompanies the LT Mass, you will find that the teens make the transition with ease. In fact, I've found, that those who learned well from the LT Masses and catechesis, actually have transitioned into preferring more traditional music in Mass as they've grown older. They still like P&W outside of Mass. But they have come to recognize that they don't need that music to participate in the Mass.

Actually, your same argument can go for really good liturgy, too. When I came into the Church, my parish (the only parish I knew and ever attended) used some Latin, sang traditional hymns, and just had amesome liturgies. I remember the first time that I went to a Mass outside of my parish and the other parish held hands during the Our Father, sang awful songs, and stood during the Lamb of God. I actually turned to my friend and asked if this was a Catholic Mass. The externals were changed so much that "the Mass was foreign to me." I wasn't yet Catholic, although I was in RCIA, and I hadn't been taught the meaning of the Mass or how to truly participate in it. Now that I have learned both of those things, I can worship no matter the "externals".
[/quote]
I guess we just differ on the meaning and purpose of the Mass. I believe there should be only one Mass for all.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1311695594' post='2276220']
I guess we just differ on the meaning and purpose of the Mass. I believe there should be only one Mass for all.
[/quote]

Where do we differ on the meaning and purpose of the Mass?

One Mass?

So, every parish, every Mass ever celebrated, should use the same music? Have the same people doing the exact same things during the Mass?

[Papist]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311696009' post='2276226']
Where do we differ on the meaning and purpose of the Mass?

One Mass?

So, every parish, every Mass ever celebrated, should use the same music? Have the same people doing the exact same things during the Mass?
[/quote]
I don't believe the liturgy itself should be the teaching mechanism to teach people the meaning and purpose of the Mass. That should be in catechesis classes, youth ministry programs[which I did], RCIA, etc.

I don't mean one Mass as in only have one Mass time, e.g. 10am. I mean that every Sunday Mass should be the same. Mass should not be for a specific target audience. Where's the universality in that?

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1311696528' post='2276234']
I don't believe the liturgy itself should be the teaching mechanism to teach people the meaning and purpose of the Mass. That should be in catechesis classes, youth ministry programs[which I did], RCIA, etc.
[/quote]

The liturgy is one of the highest forms of catechesis. From [i]Sacramentum Caritatis[/i]:

64. The Church's great liturgical tradition teaches us that fruitful participation in the liturgy requires that one be personally conformed to the mystery being celebrated, offering one's life to God in unity with the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of the whole world. For this reason, the Synod of Bishops asked that the faithful be helped to make their interior dispositions correspond to their gestures and words. Otherwise, however carefully planned and executed our liturgies may be, they would risk falling into a certain ritualism. Hence the need to provide an education in eucharistic faith capable of enabling the faithful to live personally what they celebrate. Given the vital importance of this personal and conscious participatio, what methods of formation are needed? The Synod Fathers unanimously indicated, in this regard, a mystagogical approach to catechesis, which would lead the faithful to understand more deeply the mysteries being celebrated. (186)[b] In particular, given the close relationship between the ars celebrandi and an actuosa participatio, it must first be said that "the best catechesis on the Eucharist is the Eucharist itself, celebrated well." (187) By its nature, the liturgy can be pedagogically effective in helping the faithful to enter more deeply into the mystery being celebrated.[/b] That is why, in the Church's most ancient tradition, the process of Christian formation always had an experiential character. While not neglecting a systematic understanding of the content of the faith, it centred on a vital and convincing encounter with Christ, as proclaimed by authentic witnesses. It is first and foremost the witness who introduces others to the mysteries. Naturally, this initial encounter gains depth through catechesis and finds its source and summit in the celebration of the Eucharist.

[quote]I don't mean one Mass as in only have one Mass time, e.g. 10am. I mean that every Sunday Mass should be the same. Mass should not be for a specific target audience. Where's the universality in that?[/quote]

The universality of the Mass comes from the [i]essence[/i] of the Mass as making present the one Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not in the externals.

[Papist]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311697214' post='2276241']
The liturgy is one of the highest forms of catechesis. From [i]Sacramentum Caritatis[/i]:

64. The Church's great liturgical tradition teaches us that fruitful participation in the liturgy requires that one be personally conformed to the mystery being celebrated, offering one's life to God in unity with the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of the whole world. For this reason, the Synod of Bishops asked that the faithful be helped to make their interior dispositions correspond to their gestures and words. Otherwise, however carefully planned and executed our liturgies may be, they would risk falling into a certain ritualism. Hence the need to provide an education in eucharistic faith capable of enabling the faithful to live personally what they celebrate. Given the vital importance of this personal and conscious participatio, what methods of formation are needed? The Synod Fathers unanimously indicated, in this regard, a mystagogical approach to catechesis, which would lead the faithful to understand more deeply the mysteries being celebrated. (186)[b] In particular, given the close relationship between the ars celebrandi and an actuosa participatio, it must first be said that "the best catechesis on the Eucharist is the Eucharist itself, celebrated well." (187) By its nature, the liturgy can be pedagogically effective in helping the faithful to enter more deeply into the mystery being celebrated.[/b] That is why, in the Church's most ancient tradition, the process of Christian formation always had an experiential character. While not neglecting a systematic understanding of the content of the faith, it centred on a vital and convincing encounter with Christ, as proclaimed by authentic witnesses. It is first and foremost the witness who introduces others to the mysteries. Naturally, this initial encounter gains depth through catechesis and finds its source and summit in the celebration of the Eucharist.
[/quote]
Are you really reading into this that the liturgy is a substitute for instructional religious education?

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311697214' post='2276241']
The universality of the Mass comes from the [b][i]essence[/i] of the Mass[/b] as making present the one Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not in the [b]externals[/b].
[/quote]
I don't have a clue what this means.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1311708322' post='2276258']
Are you really reading into this that the liturgy is a substitute for instructional religious education?[/quote]

Where in the world do you get that from? I was simply responding to your claim that the liturgy has no place for educating. [i]Sacramentum Caritatis[/i] clearly shows that it does. Neither the excerpt I provided, nor anything I have said, has indicated that I think there is no place for instructional religious education.

[quote]
I don't have a clue what this means.
[/quote]

I'm sorry. It's pretty clear. We don't deem a Mass universal simply because of what music is played or who is present or what language it's in. The Mass is universal because of its essence, because of [i]what[/i] the Mass [i]is[/i]... which is the "making present of the one Sacrifice of Christ."

Are you going to respond to my counter arguments or continue to sidestep them?

[Papist]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1311710165' post='2276278']
Where in the world do you get that from? I was simply responding to your claim that the liturgy has no place for educating. Sacramentum Caritatis clearly shows that it does. Neither the excerpt I provided, nor anything I have said, has indicated that I think there is no place for instructional religious education.

I'm sorry. It's pretty clear. We don't deem a Mass universal simply because of what music is played or who is present or what language it's in. The Mass is universal because of its essence, because of what the Mass is... which is the "making present of the one Sacrifice of Christ."

Are you going to respond to my counter arguments or continue to sidestep them?
[/quote]
I didn't mean to be argumentative nor confrontational. Perhaps I could have chosen a better word than ‘should’. I was struggling to understand the designing the mass to make teens comfortable. Hence, my post.

Yes, the Mass can be a learning and growing experience. But, I was responding to your statement "LT's 'embellishments' help to teach young people how to participate in the Mass."

Sorry. I am not trying to sidestep anything. I must have missed your question. I looked back and failed to find one I didn't respond to.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I apologize for my confrontational tone- that was out of line and there's no excuse for it.

Here's my thought... all catechesis is modeled off of the [i]Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults[/i] and one of the guiding principles for the RCIA is [i]mystagogia[/i], where we learn our faith through experiencing the mysteries (the Sacraments). As the excerpt I provided from [i]Sacramentum Caritatis[/i] says, the Mass (well celebrated) is best catechesis on the Eucharist. This of course does not mean we foresake other forms of catechesis... merely that by its own nature, the Mass catechizes. My point earlier was the certain aspects of the LT Mass, which you at one point called "embellishments," aid or assist this catechesis. My example was that of praise and worship music and how it specifically aids teens and teaches them [i]how[/i] to offer themselves as a living sacrifice along with the one eternal sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which is offered during the Mass.

You responded to my argument by saying:

[quote]I don't believe the liturgy itself should be the teaching mechanism to teach people the meaning and purpose of the Mass. That should be in catechesis classes, youth ministry programs[which I did], RCIA, etc.[/quote]

That's why I provided the quote from [i]Sacramentum Caritatis[/i]. The liturgy itself is in fact the "best catechesis on the Eucharist". So I suppose it's now up to you either to disagree with SC, which I don't think you do... or to amend your statement and respond to my argument about how LT Mass is beneficial in so far as it teaches the youth how to properly participate in the Mass, quoted again below:

[quote]I really don't think this is the case. Or, at least it doesn't have to be. LT's "embellishments" help to [i]teach[/i] young people how to participate in the Mass. Again, understanding the developmental needs and stages of a pre-teen to teen. Let's take the example of so-called praise and worship music used in LT Masses. Many of these songs, in their lyrics and musical qualities, help an individuals to offer themselves completely to God, to praise God, to adore God. Like training wheels. Properly chosen for the Mass, the use of this type of music can help teach teens how to truly actively participate in the Mass by making an offering of themselves, of praising God, of giving thanks. And, like training wheels, they are slowly raised and eventually removed.

If the Mass isn't taught, then yes... I can see what you're saying. But if there is good catechesis that accompanies the LT Mass, you will find that the teens make the transition with ease. In fact, I've found, that those who learned well from the LT Masses and catechesis, actually have transitioned into preferring more traditional music in Mass as they've grown older. They still like P&W outside of Mass. But they have come to recognize that they don't need that music to participate in the Mass.

Actually, your same argument can go for really good liturgy, too. When I came into the Church, my parish (the only parish I knew and ever attended) used some Latin, sang traditional hymns, and just had amesome liturgies. I remember the first time that I went to a Mass outside of my parish and the other parish held hands during the Our Father, sang awful songs, and stood during the Lamb of God. I actually turned to my friend and asked if this was a Catholic Mass. The externals were changed so much that "the Mass was foreign to me." I wasn't yet Catholic, although I was in RCIA, and I hadn't been taught the meaning of the Mass or how to truly participate in it. Now that I have learned both of those things, I can worship no matter the "externals".[/quote]

[Papist]

I truly understand your thinking. However, I read [i]Sacramentum Caritatis [/i]and still I don't understand it to be saying the liturgy to be used as catechesis...Though I can see it as a tool for catechesis. Also, this would be inconsistent with sending the RCIA catechumens out prior the the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This would be a paradigm shift for me b/c after 10+ years of youth ministry and teaching 8th grade CCD this has never been brought to my attention. I'm going to let my head clear and re-read it with my wife. And will re-read Renewing the Vision. Thank you.

[add]

when i was in my 20's i sang in the church folk group. we didn't need a special mass or anything like that. i learned a lot of the songs from the weekly missal, traditional song. then we all (folk group) sang them acoustically, with [i]GUITARS[/i], [i]MANDOLINS, [/i][i]Tambourines, and [/i]wood blocks i didn't play any instruments, i sang (out loud) it was one of my best memories of my life. and i still remember the words to : [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XhUsJD0w1M&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=related[/url] and a whole lot more
the group age ranged from 14 yo to 50 yo, but it was mostly late teens

Edited August 1, 2011 by add