A Civilized And Focused Discussion On Life Teen

[Steve]

First: Thank you tinytherese. Those are some very good points and I do agree to an extent.[color="#7D7D7D"][font="Tangerine, serif"] [/font][/color]

QUOTE FROM CAM42:

[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#000080"]"No, do worry about clothes...Clothes have been and will be an important aspect of morality and modesty. The more you cover the less you have to worry about. There are times and places for shorts and t-shirts...Mass isn't one of them. IF we are a "Eucharistic People" (whatever that means) and the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Faith (which it is), wouldn't it only make sense that you would want to put your best foot forward in EVERYTHING? That would include dressing appropriately. Shorts and a t-shirt might be ok for a baseball game or some sporting event, but Mass? Really? It's too much to ask that "the youth" own a pair of slacks, an oxford shirt, and a pair of dress shoes/a nice knee length dress or skirt with sleeves and a pair of flats or some other appropriate footwear? It isn't. Even the poorest kid in America can come up with that....but we're not talking about that extreme are we? We're talking about suburban-ites....How we dress is important...it conveys the seriousness in how we will worship. If you dress in a more serious manner, then the liturgical action lends itself to a more serious atmosphere...and sadly, as has been shown in several youtube videos, vice versa....

I'm not sorry I got that in, it is important.

What is some of the "great material" that Life Teen provides. I'd like to see some of it. Is it online? Does it encompass the whole of the Catholic Faith or just the last 40 years? Does it teach about the great patrimony of Holy Mother Church or does it focus solely on the last 40 years? I'd like to know. It provides effective models for ministry...

You live in a small town. I don't think so...try coming to where I live. I grew up in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt,_IA"]town of 4500[/url]; my brother-in-law grew up in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargeant,_MN"]town of 61[/url]. The towns around mine average anywhere from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer,_IA"]21[/url]to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas,_IA"]1900[/url]. You don't live in a small town. You live in a small city, there's plenty to do...

See, that's the problem...Life Teen is about Protestant ideals...social issues and personal relationship with God. How about Life Teen being about promoting and embracing Catholic teaching and catechizing the youth on that? The wheel doesn't have to be re-invented. Young people aren't going to Life Teen. They are going to the Traditional Latin Mass. It's a proven fact. Tradition is winning the day...Life Teen is blase and it is a dated and flawed way of looking at how to minister to the youth. They don't like it. They want tradition.

You don't need to "take it down" for your youth, you need to challenge them. We live in the most advanced society in the world. Our youth can handle being taught Catholicism authentically. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventutem"]Juventutem[/url] might be a valid option, since Life Teen apparently didn't work.

And even though you're giving Life Teen the credit, it isn't going to be in your "small" town next year...

Life Teen is flawed and deficient. It runs on a Protestant model and it doesn't work. It does not speak to Catholic mentalities, it speaks to pop culture...that is not a model to base upon, especially when the target is a Church that has outlasted 2000 years of pop culture..." /End Quote[/color][/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]On the topic of dress code: I'm all for showing reverence and respect at mass. I agree that it is important to do so. BUT......[/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]But #1) I brought up the discussion about dress code into response to someone complaining about the dress code at there youth mass, saying that the T-shirts and shorts are specifically a problem. My response to that is that if you're going to call it a YOUTH mass, let it be a LITTLE youth friendly at least. A youth mass should not be just a kid or two doing the readings, bringing up the gifts, collecting and TADA you have a youth mass. Our youth these days tend to not like to dress up. We are dealing with kids who often A)Taught by the world and other Christian churches that there is something wrong with the Catholic Church B) Do not believe in Jesus Christ C) Do not even believe in God. Now I'm not sure if you know this, but the Catholic Church has a certain feeling of unwelcomingness (for lack of a better word) for non-Catholics and heck, even for many Catholics. Part has to do with the fact that to a newcomer the Catholic mass is intimidating. When you add the stuffiness and [/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]judgmental attitudes present it is a HUGE turn-off for kids that I finally am able to get to come experience the mass. I believe that deep down inside they come in search of God's love and are often met with nothing but judgement by his people. [/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]But#2) In a perfect world, clothes should be the last of our worries when coming before the Eucharist. It would be so much nicer if instead of worrying about clean clothes we should first worry, "Do I have a clean soul for mass?" You are about to receive Jesus when you go to mass. Does he have a nice place to reside? Do you go to confession immediately before receiving the Eucharist? The fact is you can do nothing but impress your fellow parishioners with nice clothes, if that's your goal great. But if you are planning on impressing God I don't think nice clothes are going to cut it. For some reason I don't think that clothes are on any priority list of Jesus'. [/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Great Material: [/size][/font][url="http://www.lifeteen.com/"]http://www.lifeteen.com/[/url], Website has just about everything they have to offer, and can answer all of your questions for you, if you take the time to look over the resources.

I'm sorry, Small city. All I know is that it's big enough to have major gang problems, and small enough to where the "good kids" go hang out at Baskin robins and Mcdonalds.


I'm sorry[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#595959"] I didn't know that having a personal relationship with God was a protestant thing. I guess I must be at least part protestant than. [/color][color="#0000ff"]"[/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]Life Teen is about Protestant ideals...social issues and personal relationship with God." [/color][/size][/font][font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]If you'll remember correctly I said that the Life Teen is all about promoting the Catholic faith and Catechizing the teens. In fact the reason why we are dropping it is because they do so. Our youth can't handle a lot of that stuff. (And for those who can we do have options for them). You'll have to introduce me to these young people who go to the traditional latin mass. I'm sure there are many out there, but it is not our youth.[/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"][color="#0000ff"]"especially when the target is a Church that has outlasted 2000 years of pop culture... " [/color]Not sure if you've looked at any statistics lately, but the Catholic Church isn't on an upward slope or even staying constant in numbers. I have faith in God's church, and I know it will prevail, but if the trends WERE to stay constant, I would say the Church would not outlast 2200 years of pop culture. [/size][/font]
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[font="arial, verdana, sans-serif"][size="4"]Lastly, I'm curious.....you know mine, but what are YOU'RE experiences and qualifications with Life Teen, and youth ministry in general.[/size][/font]

[Nihil Obstat]

I like dressing up. I use any excuse I can get to put on my tie or bow tie.

[Ice_nine]

I generally agree with you on your point #2. I'll still probably be nervous walking into a church knowing that some people are psycho-analyzing my motives and my lack of reverence based on what I'm wearing but hey, the panic attacks are less debilitating than they used to be and it just wouldn't feel right walking into a place of worship without a little bit of paranoia. Such people probably don't know or understand how damaging and unwelcoming this attitude is to certain people, especially neurotic ones like me, but they mean well and before I start actually making sense and before another petty flamewar starts, I'm gonna bow out here

have fun y'all, and play nice

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1307802504' post='2252346']
I generally agree with you on your point #2. I'll still probably be nervous walking into a church knowing that some people are psycho-analyzing my motives and my lack of reverence based on what I'm wearing but hey, the panic attacks are less debilitating than they used to be and it just wouldn't feel right walking into a place of worship without a little bit of paranoia. Such people probably don't know or understand how damaging and unwelcoming this attitude is to certain people, especially neurotic ones like me, but they mean well and before I start actually making sense and before another petty flamewar starts, I'm gonna bow out here

have fun y'all, and play nice
[/quote]

Ice, do not be nervous walking into any catholic Church, you are there for God, and He is there for you. I agree we should put our best on when we are in the presence of the King. When we can it seems more reverent. I have had to make mass in work clothes as I was forced to work on a sunday to support my family, being a self employed contractor and having to deal with weather, access to structures during regular work hours etc. sometimes I have no other option as bills are due and food is needed for the table. I doubt a God that would love his creation would care how they dressed to visit Him, one possible exception may be if it was done without the attention being towards God, afterall the mass is about His sacrifice, not about us.

ed

[havok579257]

see this is where i have a problem with people juding others by what they wear at mass/church. people don't know people's situations, so to judge them is completely wrong.

there has been two times that i have went into a very orthodox church, one was in latin wearing a t-shirt or a pullover and gym shorts. both instances were for confession. once i was going right before work and the other was right after work. i sometimes leave my work uniform in my locker at work, so i wear gym shorts and a t-shirt to work and channge there. i also change after work and do not wear my work clothes home. so looking at me from someone's elses point of view, it would look like i a being disrespectful because i can't bother to dress up for church. although those people probobly did not know i was going to or leaving work. they did not know my situation.

there is also been quite a few times i have gone to confession at the latin mass church in my work clothes which is paramedic pantaloons and a t-shirt. would it have been better of me to just skip confession because i was wearing a t-shirt and just hope i don't die with a mortal sin on my soul? do you honestly think God cares more about what i wear into his church than confession and receiving aboultion for a mortal sin and being reconciled to him?

numerous times on sunday i see nurses in scrubs and a paramedic in his gear(i think he is on duty). should they just not come to mass since they are not dressed what others would deem appropriote? should they instead skip mass? is dressing up more important that actually attending mass?

wearing a polo shirt and kaki shorts is dressing up in my book. although in many others its not.


there are so many siutation why people dress the way they do to mass/church. to judge others because of their dress is a sin. also why are you worried about what others are wearing at mass. should you not 100% be focused on the Lord? obviously if your juding what people wearing your focus is not on the Lord and you are currently sinning while in his house.

how about this, stop worrying about what everyone else is wearing to mass and just worry about God. unless someone is dressed provacatively, don't give it a second thought. simple as that.

[CatherineM]

I can't remember going to a mass in Florida where there weren't shorts being worn. In summer it was the rule rather than the exception, priests included. My oldest didn't own a pair of long pantaloons until he went into the Navy. He wore shorts even when it was cold. Kind of like Bart Simpson.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote]Our youth these days tend to not like to dress up.[/quote]

I do not buy into this. There is and will always be a time and a place for dressing up. Youth still dress up for proms, formals, dances, graduation, special occasions and holidays, going out to dinner, and to impress each other when going out on dates. How important is the mass in comparison to things like this? Now I'm not saying that it's necessary to wear a prom dress or that expensive clothing is necessary for mass, but I don't think putting a little effort into looking nice for an hour out of our week is too much to ask for if we can help it.

Taking care into our dress and appearance for mass and worrying about ourselves on the inside does not have to be mutually exclusive. If you are dressing up NOT out of impressing parishioners but to show love, respect and reverence to God, his house of worship, and his mass, then yes, I do think that is pleasing to God. We don't need to dress sloppy, wear shorts and flip flops to mass to be welcoming and attractive to newcomers. I think on the flip side, if someone wants to dress nicely for mass or wear chapel veils or what have you, don't judge them by assuming they are stuffy people that judge you in return for what you are wearing.

My parish growing up was a LifeTeen parish (to be honest, Cam42's article by that priest hit home, his experience with the LifeTeen mass and watching his classmates outgrow it and fall away is very similar to mine). I guess my bone of contention right now isn't with youth programs and ministry so long as they're orthodox and kids are being taught something (my generation wasn't taught anything much of theology...just great campfire and lanyard skills and a few bible stories) -- but I don't understand nor see the long-term benefits of extending the name to the mass as well and catering a regular parish mass to one particular age demographic when the mass is meant to be universal, sacred, and for everyone.

[quote]Not sure if you've looked at any statistics lately, but the Catholic Church isn't on an upward slope or even staying constant in numbers. I have faith in God's church, and I know it will prevail, but if the trends WERE to stay constant, I would say the Church would not outlast 2200 years of pop culture. [/quote]

I honestly do not understand what your point is here, it almost seems contradictory. Would you mind clarifying on this? Thanks.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[Brother Adam]

Since a thread on this topic was just closed it is not prudent to open it up again. Just a warning the moderators may re-close it or issue warnings.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1307817887' post='2252392']
Since a thread on this topic was just closed it is not prudent to open it up again. Just a warning the moderators may re-close it or issue warnings.
[/quote]

Oh you old worry wart !

ed

[kujo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307799321' post='2252331']
I like dressing up. I use any excuse I can get to put on my tie or bow tie.
[/quote]

Agreed here. I've been told that I look like a fatter/hairier/less charming Donald Draper!

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307799321' post='2252331']
I like dressing up. I use any excuse I can get to put on my tie or bow tie.
[/quote]

I do as well, though during the summer for my job I have to wear a tie and etc, so I choose not to wear such when going to Mass, since I feel like I am going to work...

[Steve]

I sure hope they don't close this thread. They shouldn't as long as everyone plays nice. There's nothing wrong with discussing the topic. The last one was closed because it looks like people got out of hand.

As for dress code. I guess we can agree to disagree and I'll be glad that Jesus is in charge of our church and not some of you.

My point about the pop-culture is a counter point to the original post I was arguing against. It's not contradictory notice the "WERE". All caps. I don't think the Church WILL continue to decline in numbers because I have faith. But that doesn't mean that we should just go on doing what we are doing waiting for God to magically poof everything right again. We are his hands and feet.

[quote]

[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4]My parish growing up was a LifeTeen parish (to be honest, Cam42's article by that priest hit home, his experience with the LifeTeen mass and watching his classmates outgrow it and fall away is very similar to mine). I guess my bone of contention right now isn't with youth programs and ministry so long as they're orthodox and kids are being taught something (my generation wasn't taught anything much of theology...just great campfire and lanyard skills and a few bible stories) -- but I don't understand nor see the long-term benefits of extending the name to the mass as well and catering a regular parish mass to one particular age demographic when the mass is meant to be universal, sacred, and for everyone.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]
[color=#595959][font=arial, verdana, sans-serif][size=4][/size][/font][/color]

I'm sticking with the idea that Life Teen is a great ministry. For those of you who don't like it and feel that it's not orthodox enough/isn't teaching the theology enough/ isn't teaching about the church enough, use it as a supplement to your youth ministry. The other part of youth ministry would be Catechism classes/Confirmation classes. Those do plenty of all that. Maybe Life Teen is more about building a personal relationship with God. If you ask me that's a good thing cause God knows (and I mean it when I say GOD KNOWS) that Catechism classes/Confirmation classes isn't doing a good enough job of that. We need to stop graduating kids from our church with Confirmation. Because that's what they see it as. Graduation.

[Lil Red]

here's what bugs me:

the same time of people who insist that you're not truly Catholic unless you accept & promote LifeTeen 1000%, are the same type of people who insist that you must accept Medjugorje; the same type of people who insist that you're not a real Catholic if you believe women can wear pantaloons; the same type of people who say if you think it's okay that women wear makeup, you're a heretic; the same type of people who insist that it's okay to use torture; and the same type of people who say that you can't be for the Death Penalty.

there, did i fit everything in?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307845728' post='2252597']
here's what bugs me:

the same time of people who insist that you're not truly Catholic unless you accept & promote LifeTeen 1000%, are the same type of people who insist that you must accept Medjugorje; the same type of people who insist that you're not a real Catholic if you believe women can wear pantaloons; the same type of people who say if you think it's okay that women wear makeup, you're a heretic; the same type of people who insist that it's okay to use torture; and the same type of people who say that you can't be for the Death Penalty.

there, did i fit everything in?
[/quote]

No, you forgot about NFP.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1307847724' post='2252617']
No, you forgot about NFP.
[/quote]