Nihil Obstat Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1307839266' post='2252546'] No but you state that the could be a force for Traditionalism. I was clarifying that until they are obedient to Rome and accept Vatican II they will never be considered Traditionalists nor will the people who support their masses. [/quote] I think it's very reasonable to suggest that the SSPX had some influence on the formation of the Ecclesia Dei commission and Summorum Pontificum. I consider them traditionalists in spite of their disobedience. As I said, I believe that most, maybe all of them, have acted in good faith. I think they were wrong, but I think it was in good faith. I think most of them believed that they only did what they had to do. I see no reason to refuse to call them traditionalists. That's silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1307838266' post='2252539'] Why should they have bitterness or resentment towards the Church? They were in the wrong, not the Church. The part I highlighted is what concerns me. It still sounds like they believe they represent the "old Magisterium" as if the Church doesn't. It stills seems like it is coming from a position that the SSPX is right, and eventually the Pope will figure it out. I only see pride, not humility, coming from their side. [/quote] hmmm... I recognize a pattern I'm praying for them, i hope they finally do what they hafta do, and come back home. But as far as them being a "force for traditionalism.." they cant be anything in disobedience, no matter how pretty they look. Besides, we have a beautiful Order that already celebrates the Holy Mass in the extraodinary form, and they are subordinate to teh Pope and faithful to the Church. I wonder if when the SSPXers' come back, will they be incorporated into the FSSP? [img]http://www.fssp.org/objet/Imaxen.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.fssp.org/album/HPR2011/dsc06706.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.fssp.org/album/HM2004/pocito.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.fssp.org/album/O20020615/image034.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307840788' post='2252551'] [img]http://www.fssp.org/album/HPR2011/dsc06706.jpg[/img] [/quote] Ooh, those columns are lovely. Where is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307840508' post='2252548'] I think it's very reasonable to suggest that the SSPX had some influence on the formation of the Ecclesia Dei commission and Summorum Pontificum. I consider them traditionalists in spite of their disobedience. As I said, I believe that most, maybe all of them, have acted in good faith. I think they were wrong, but I think it was in good faith. I think most of them believed that they only did what they had to do. I see no reason to refuse to call them traditionalists. That's silly. [/quote] I see plenty of reasons. They are not in full communion with Rome. To consider them Traditionalists and not in full communion is ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1307841187' post='2252555'] I see plenty of reasons. They are not in full communion with Rome. To consider them Traditionalists and not in full communion is ridiculous [/quote] I disagree. They're traditionalists who took it a little too far in '88 (and sort of in '76), and they are still Catholic, not in schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307841455' post='2252557'] I disagree. They're traditionalists who took it a little too far in '88 (and sort of in '76), and they are still Catholic, not in schism. [/quote] Also recall Bishop Tissier, who is neither in schism, nor excommunicated anymore, [i]nor suspended[/i]. He is nothing more than a bishop without a See. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307841093' post='2252553'] Ooh, those columns are lovely. Where is that? [/quote] I believe it is a Mass celebrated in Rheinau, Switzerland. I'm not sure of the name of the church. I looked through their photo albums on their website. [url="http://www.fssp.org/index.htm"]FSSP[/url] Soooooo beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307841662' post='2252561'] I believe it is a Mass celebrated in Rheinau, Switzerland. I'm not sure of the name of the church. I looked through their photo albums on their website. [url="http://www.fssp.org/index.htm"]FSSP[/url] Soooooo beautiful [/quote] Those blue vestments in the last picture are my favourites though. I always love seeing a humeral veil; they're far too rare these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307841455' post='2252557'] I disagree. They're traditionalists who took it a little too far in '88 (and sort of in '76), and they are still Catholic, not in schism. [/quote] Disagreeing would mean it's a matter of opinion. Like " I disagree, I think polka music is a wonderful thing!" It's not a matter of opinion. They are not Traditionalists until they are obedient to Rome. [quote]"The remission of the excommunication has freed the four bishops from a serious canonical penalty, but it has not altered the juridical position of the Society of St. Pius X which, at the present time, enjoys no canonical recognition within the Catholic Church. Even the four bishops, though released from excommunication, have no canonical function in the Church and cannot legally exercise a ministry within her".[/quote] You can sugar coat it all you want. They have to assent their will fully to the Church before they can be considered Traditionalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Nihil, the website describes the church as "The magnificent church from the abbey on Saint-Fintan-Rheinau Island (Switzerland)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307840788' post='2252551'] [b] they cant be anything in disobedience, no matter how pretty they look. [/b] [/quote] This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 12, 2011 Author Share Posted June 12, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1307841958' post='2252566'] Disagreeing would mean it's a matter of opinion. Like " I disagree, I think polka music is a wonderful thing!" It's not a matter of opinion. They are not Traditionalists until they are obedient to Rome. You can sugar coat it all you want. They have to assent their will fully to the Church before they can be considered Traditionalist. [/quote] According to them, they are dedicated to doing just that. While we disagree with them on some of their methods, at the end of the day neither you nor I can know whether or not they have acted in good conscience. I believe that they did, and I think it is more Christian to assume that they did. It is entirely acceptable to call them traditionalist.[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307842113' post='2252568'] Nihil, the website describes the church as "The magnificent church from the abbey on Saint-Fintan-Rheinau Island (Switzerland)" [/quote] Kewl. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 The FSSP celebrating Mass at the Elysburg Carmel [img]http://fssp.com/press/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/carmel_valparaiso.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I just wanta to say this. This is totally my own opinion, but I want to share where I stand in all this SSPX stuff. It has been a frustrating 40 years of what seems to be very chaotic, confusing, abusive practices in our Liturgy. I can almost sympathize with teh SSPX. My saintly mother, who was brought up in a Catholic Church that, admittingly, looks completely different than the Church today..., she used to say, "I hope Bishop Levebre(sp) made it to heaven, because, I cannot totally disagree with what he was trying to stand up for..." She was in no way happy for his disobedience, and she used to say, "If only they would have just stuck it out and stayed in teh Church, we need them." I'm afraid they have done more damage than good. Any time a group disobeys the Pope and takes a stand for something as legitimate as teh Mass in the Extraordinary Form, they cause division. Division doesn't solve problems, division perpetuates them. I truly hope, with all my heart, that they become submissive to the Holy Father and return for the greater glory of God and His Holy Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 FSSP Vocations video. Traditional and 100% in line with Holy Mother Church. So beautiful [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omJ83APSdXA&feature=player_embedded[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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