Does Anyone Else....

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1307710579' post='2251970']
Barb - that was a truly beautiful and heartfelt post. I, too, feel a strong call in my heart that doesn't seem to be God's will, so I still search and discern where I belong. In my heart I am a Carmelite. The fact is that this is probably not going to be my future. I am discerning Benedictine and there is much in their charism and lifestyle that I do love (especially chanting the Office) - things I didn't know about them when I first started discerning as a Carmelite. Perhaps, as I learn more about the Benedictine way of life (after some live in visits especially), I will know for sure if this is where God is calling me. Or, perhaps, in the end, God will let me know that religious life is not where he wants me after all, despite all the longing and this feeling in my heart that I am already a nun.

I think that it is incredibly hard for women of a mature age right now, especially ones who have been married, because they have so few options available to them if they want consecration through the Church, and only those who are in this situation can know how much it hurts, I think... kind of like an infertile woman who longs for a child. The funny thing is that men of mature age, with children even, can still become priests, but women are denied even a simple consecrated state.... perhaps one day the Church will recognize that many women who have had marriages annuled want not only to live the life of a single celibate, but also the recognition of the Church through consecration - that which is offered to hermits and virgins. But this is what God allows (just as He allows infertility), and so we must use the suffering to grow in trust and love for Him.

Your posts lately have been very inspiring - thank you.
[/quote]


Hi Nunsense - You contribute some very inspirational and heartfelt posts, yourself! The above is one of them. In the time I have been reading your posts, I can almost see how you have grown spiritually.

Some months back both my director and I had a dramatic change of residence around the same time. This meant we had to take a break from appointments for a while, a couple months it was. We did stay in touch via email, but both of us were busy with the demands that a shift of residence is and then settling into our new residences. When we eventually did get back together, Sister commented "You have grown spiritually". Well she may have been able to see it - I still seemed to me "same old, same old!"
Of great interest and God is Good, we are now closer together than before.

As long as we seek God's Will, it will be revealed to us - perhaps not in our timeframe or quite the way we thought it would be. One thing I have found in my life now as a single celibate and after two 'tours of duty' in religious life both monastic, one in my teens, the other in my forties - and between those, 15 years of marriage, two children (one is my foster son, but now at 48yrs of age, still calls me Mum), then divorce and annulment - is that God does indeed sometimes writes very straight in quite crooked lines. Each of those 'calls' has spoken to my life now as a single celibate. All my life experiences have found their place and spoken to my call as a single celibate (including a journey of 30 years with Bipolar Disorder). But as I reflect back, it was a journey of "not knowing" and continues in a similar vein. While my primary call and vocation is clear to me, the actual details simply unfold in my days and psychological conditioning and God's Grace has meant that I am content with that journey of the 'not knowing'.
I can recall quite clearly many years ago saying "I can't even find the ends, let alone try to make them meet!" Years later the threads of my life started to wind of themselves, as it were, into the one thread - but where that thread is going, is still mystery. And that is ok with me, I have learnt to live with not knowing.

I have picked up in your posts over some considerable time now of your ardent desire to serve God in the religious life. It may unfold that you will, or it could unfold that you will still ardently serve God but not in religious life. It is still an unfolding journey for you. For me, it was very much a matter of detaching from what I wanted and while this can be intitially painful, disappointment and a few other negatives, it is at once an attaching and attaching to God's Will. As God and His Grace detaches from what is not necessary, He at once attaches to Himself and His Will. Very often God's Will is not so much revealed through personal desires as through personal circumstances. God speaks loudly and firmly in the circumstances of our lives. Hence, personally, I would be entirely and absolutely encouraging to you as long as your personal circumstances do present the possibility of entering religious life, to continue to pursue your that course. And since you do so ardently desire it, I hope and pray that your desires will be fulfilled and in the way you hope.

In another thread, and I will try to return and link to that thread, Orans contributed a beautiful thread about those of us who do have ardent desires for consecration but at this point that desire is frustrated.
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113255 (Scroll down to Orans Post #6)

The Cross is central to our lives and it is redemptive. No matter what vocation and call one finds oneself following, there will the The Cross central and sometimes a most distasteful and other negatives, cross and burden to bear. It is entirely possible Grace prevailing to arrive at a point where suffering and The Cross is preferable to a way of Peace and Fulfillment, in fact The Cross per se can bring great Peace and Fulfillment "I have longed to eat this Passover with you". What God 'takes' He more than returns and in "one hundredfold" (Matthew) of measure. But there is something greater and that is to rest in the Divine Providence of God and to be detached from one's own desires re content. And no matter where a person actually may be in their life journey, Divine Providence is there and Providing all that is necessary for holiness and sanctity - even in the midst of suffering and disappointments, let downs. Even indeed in the midst of our failures and offences. God is The Unfailing Ever-Faithful One leading every single person to Himself and Unity with Himself, if we will but co-operate with Him and His Grace. This is very much what spiritual direction is about. It identifies that direction in which God is leading and encourages and affirms one along that path. God's Providence and Will is always present to us - ALWAYS - and no matter our cirumstances or disposition. His Will does not castigate, nor be angry or rejecting, His Will is always with Love and Longing to Fully Embrace leading us with His Grace to Unity with Himself - to holiness and sanctity. Our God so longs to be loved and embraced in return He has gifted us with a totally free will. Complete and absolute freedom of choice and decision, even the freedom to reject Him and His Love. But God never rejects us nor anyone, nor does his Love, Care and Mercy ever mitigate, lessen - they are absolute Absolute and Perfect, Ever Faithful in all circumstances and at all times, seasons.

Be the above as it may, yes it is a suffering that the single celibate person has no official place in the life of The Church as a consecated person. But then Canon Law follows life for the Holy Spirit is active in life, not in Canon Law while He is the inspiration of Canon Law as Orans so beautifully points out in his post (link above). So for those of us who are single and celibate for example, it is a matter of continuing to live as we do knowing that we are embraced in every way by God. Every way possible! For God does not say and I am laughing as I write this: "You are not consecated and so 'smell' a little!" LOL

Ok, shall dismount my pulpit and will go off and return with a link to the beautiful post I mentioned - in fact the whole thread was a productive one.


God bless and keep you and ever hold you as close as He does....great to 'talk' you again, Nunsense!.....Barb

Edited June 11, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1307729475' post='2252075']
I just want Him... and Mary And to not offend them constantly like I do. Im not worthy to be a religious when I constantly treat everyone around me like dirt.
[/quote]


Wow! If you were knocking on my noviciate door, after a statement like the above, you would be inside and clothed before you knew what was going on. What a beautiful statement!

[AccountDeleted]

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[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Barb, Once again, a lovely post, and I suppose in a way our posts are not completely relevant to this thread, except in that we are discussing desires of the heart and God's will vs our will etc.[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Orans post was lovely, yes, I had read that thread. But (and I don't mean to discount what she has said here), she is speaking from a position of actually being consecrated within the Church. Not that this makes her post irrelevant, it doesn't, but perhaps I am more interested in posts by you (sorry Orans, no offence intended – I love your posts) or others in our situation on this particular topic because we share an experience of NOT being consecrated. [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]The discussion of Canon Law reminds a little of a 'joke' made by Bobby's Kennedy's widow, Ethel, who was dating Andy Williams. She wasn't allowed to marry him because he was a divorced man and she is reported to have said, 'Well, one day the Church will make it perfectly okay to marry a divorced person. And then they will say that it was okay all along!' Perhaps a little pain speaking there, but she did as the Church said and didn't try to marry him, but one can see that she wondered, like we all do, about the rules and laws that hardly seem consistent sometimes and wondered if they would change in her lifetime. Perhaps that is even why some women want to be priests – they are hoping that someday the rules will change (I have even heard priests say this). Please don't jump down my throat anyone – I am not advocating female priests, I am simply discussing Canon law in a very philosophical way. When the laws work for one, then they seem eminently fair, but when they are contrary to one's heart, then they do seem harsh sometimes. But that is what surrender to God's will is all about, isn't it? After all, Abraham must have gone through hell at first when God asked him to sacrifice Isaac, but he obeyed anyway. So there are no consecrated single celibate women right now – and probably won't be in my lifetime. And if consecration wasn't important, then people wouldn't seek it out. It doesn't discount the holy and unconsecrated lay state, but there is a difference in law and in the heart for those who feel called to consecration.[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]To answer Orans question – how would my life look if I were proceeding towards consecration? It would look just as it does now. That isn't the point. I could live with someone forever but that wouldn't make us married. Please don't think I am discounting the unconsecrated lay state – I am not, but for those called to consecration, it isn't enough, no matter how many times one is told it is so. To those whom it is enough, then nothing need be said but to those whom it isn't, that nothing that is said will help. I do like her statement that...

[/size][/font][quote] Canon Law, as necessary and important as it is, is not going to open the channel for these vocations unless people who have the call start living it out and becoming significant to the Christian community through their charismatic gift of consecrated celibacy.[/quote]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]...and I hope that through people like you, Canon law does one day approve these vocations.

I am particularly averse to the 'Quietist" heresy philosophy however, of doing nothing at all with the idea that this is how we follow God's will. I have had people tell me that since I haven't been successful (yet) at religious life, that obviously it is not God's will for me, and I should accept that. I say 'rubbish' – no one knows God's will except God (unless one has a relationship with Him like Abraham or Moses – and I certainly don't) and even those who speak to Him like that don't always get it right either, as we have seen! There has to be a balance of taking steps to respond to what seems a call from the Holy Spirit while not pushing one's own agenda. But no one said it would be easy![/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]I have been particularly inspired lately by a woman who is not pursuing religious life (in fact, is probably not even a Catholic) but who has followed her dreams despite overwhelming obstacles, and has managed to achieve so much. Here is a link for those who wish to read an article about her.[/size][/font]

[url="http://www.usafe.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123091118"][font="Calibri"][size="3"][color="#800080"]http://www.usafe.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123091118[/color][/size][/font][/url]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Her name is Maj Shawna Kimbrell and she was the Air Force's first female African-American combat fighter pilot. I heard her being interviewed on the radio and she was so amazing. She talked about how she came fourth in her class of jet fighter pilots and there were only two positions open, so she failed to get a place. Instead of giving up, she went on to train for helicopter combat fighter pilot, and this time she knew she had to come first in her class or she might not make that position either – so she did. She has had to deal with a lot of different prejudices being female and being black even from the beginning when she was a motorcycle cop. And now she has become a mother as well.

I am not saying I could handle her lifestyle (but fortunately God isn't asking that of me) but it made me think that okay, so I didn't make it as a Carmelite, but that doesn't mean I can't make it as a Benedictine if I try again. None of this, 'oh it must be God's will that you aren't meant to be a religious' – if I thought like that then, well, yes, I never would be a religious. But I see myself more as Jeremiah, trying to ignore the call, but also knowing that I have to respond. If His will was that I NOT become a religious, He never had to put this burning desire in my heart in the first place. If it were only my own desire, then I could drop it, but it isn't – it is a call from Him, and I have to answer it. But perhaps I also need to have more patience and trust – like Abraham, and not keep trying to push things through. Abraham did have to wait a long time before God gave him Isaac! Who knows, I may end up one of those women who finally become a nun in their nineties! And the journey along the way is what God wants me to experience![/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Can I relate this back to this thread? Well, yes, in that I would like to be a Carmelite (there's where my preference has been given up to His will), but I accept that this calling may be answered through a Benedictine vocation or in a way that I don't see right now, and perhaps instead of becoming a jet fighter pilot, I will become a helicopter fighter pilot (figuratively speaking of course) in the spiritual war??[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Barb – I do agree with Orans in that you should never give up hoping that the Church will allow for consecrated celibate singles (or whatever they decide to call the state) because that seems to be what your calling is. Mine is to religious life, but I just don't know yet how that will manifest itself! Courage sister![/size][/font]

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[FutureSister2009]

Why must there be so many communities when they all generally follow the same Charism and take mostly the same vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience? Why can't there just be one?

[BarbTherese]

[quote][u]Quoting Nunsense[/u]: When the laws work for one, then they seem eminently fair, but when they are contrary to one's heart, then they do seem harsh sometimes. But that is what surrender to God's will is all about, isn't it?[/quote]

I think you are probably right on both scores, Nunsense. And I also agree with what you say further on in your post and surrender to God's Will is not quietism. Although what quietism is and is not can be confusing: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12608c.htm I know that de Caussade was suspected of quietism in his work "Abandonment to Divine Providence" but quietist it is not.

This is what those 'who belong' in some way in the structure of The Church can fail to empathize with and that is the pain and hurt that can come to those somehow on the outside looking in not by personal design - but through circumstances uninvited often. To be honest, every so often I reach a point where I really do not want to belong 'on the inside' for one reason or another. I am then more than happy with my lot. At other times, I am just the opposite and find myself wishing and longing that I did belong somewhere or other. Sometimes in The Church it can seem almost that baptism and being a child of God is not where it is at and one really has to be something more somewhere or other to belong.

[quote] [u]This was posted in another thread by Chamomile[/u]:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113255
"Always look to Heaven, and measure every step of your life so that it is a step towards it. It seems to me that it is so simple and at the same time comprehensive.

You ask, 'Shouldn't i be doing something?' Of course that is necessary. Do whatever falls to your hands, in your circle and in you situation–and believe that this is and will be your TRUE work; nothing more from you is required. IT IS A GREAT ERROR TO THINK THAT YOU MUST UNDERTAKE IMPORTANT AND GREAT LABORS, whether for heaven, or, as the "progressives" think, in order to make one's contribution to humanity. That is not necessary at all. It is necessary only to do everything in accordance with the Lord's commandments. Just exactly what is to be done? Nothing in particular, just that which presents itself to each one according to the circumstances of his or her life, and which is demanded by the individual events with which each of us meets. THAT IS ALL! God arranges the lot of each person, and the entire course of life of each one is all His all-good industry, as is each moment and each meeting. In all instances, and during each meeting, it is necessary to do what God wants us to do. As to what He wants, we certainly know that from the commandments He has given us. Is someone seeking help? Help him. Has someone offended you? Forgive and make peace. Did somebody praise you? Don't be proud. Did somebody scold you? Do not be angry. Is it time to pray? Pray. Is it time to work? Work. Etc., etc., etc.

If, after all of this has been explained, you set about to act in this way in every instance, so that your works will be pleasing to God, having carried them out according to the commandments without any deviation, then all the problems of your life will be solved completely and satisfactorily.'

~ St. Theophan The Recluse"[/quote]

[quote]Barb – I do agree with Orans in that you should never give up hoping that the Church will allow for consecrated celibate singles (or whatever they decide to call the state) because that seems to be what your calling is. Mine is to religious life, but I just don't know yet how that will manifest itself! Courage sister![/quote]

Thank you very much for the encouragement, Nunsense - rest assured I never give up hope while I dont invest myself nor my life in any as yet unrealized hope. It may eventuate, and then it may not.

When my brother was alive, he asked me one night when I felt down and miserable "What would you be, Sis, if you could be anything in the world you wanted to be"

"I would be a nun"
"Then, Sis, be a nun"
"Bob, you dont understand, there is my illness, I need an annulment and ..."
"Sis, cut out all that nonesense, and just be a nun"

I had no idea what he meant and was convinced he did not understand at all. After his death, the penny dropped with me. And then once Father began to speak to me about private vows, another penny dropped in this penny dropping life!!!! Smiling. In this penny dropping life, I no longer want to be a nun per se and know I am not called to the 'per se' - but that penny was to drop much later.
For me personally, it has been a question of the penny dropping that what I wanted and what God may want are not necessarily the same. When God calls, He provides. His providing may not be in a nice neat and tidy parcel as some seem to demand, but provide He will.

God bless - Barb

[BarbTherese]

[quote]None of this, 'oh it must be God's will that you aren't meant to be a religious'[/quote]

It is said that there are three signs of vocation:

The desire to be
The qualities to be
And acceptance by 'the be's'

It seems to me, Nunsense, that you have the desire and even the qualities and that it seems you may be accepted for entrance at this point - not as a Carmelite.....perhaps........but possibly as a Benedictine......perhaps. I absolutely admire you in your perseverence and even moreso if you are meeting with some opposition. This is God's Grace active in you, for if it were not you would have given up long ago. Recall some of the great opposition that many of our saints met with and in their own lifetime often by The Church Herself.

God's Will is manifest to my mind at final profession. Up to that point it is discernment both by the religious community and the applicant. At various stages along the way that discerning becomes more and more serious and affirmed at final profession, ordination, marriage, consecration - whatever. At those various stages along the way for religious life, the content of that stage and accompanying liturgy make manifest what that actual stage is, what one is actually doing. It is serious stuff! And I very much doubt anyone would enter into those various stages without meaning in full heart what they are saying and committing themselves to. And yet some do leave and get official permission to do so even after final profession.

It seems to me that the moment we try to put God into a nice and neat, tidy, understandable, compartment, He escapes.

Keep on keeping on, Nunsense - and chin up and out gal, just watch out for those who might want to take a swing at you!....One thing that endeared me to St. Therese is that stubborn stubborn chin of hers...
http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/show/521
.........regards - Barb

Edited June 13, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

Barb - one of the most inspiring women I have heard speak recently (on radio) is Major Shawna Kimbrell, USAF. She was a motorcyle cop and then wanted to be a jet fighter pilot despite the fact that the Air Force had no African American female fighter pilots. She trained hard but came fourth when there were only two places open. She didn't give up, but trained instead to be a helicopter combat fighter pilot and decided that she had to pass first in her class to guarantee a place, which she did, and became the first female African American combat fighter pilot.... through numerous experiences of prejudice for being both a woman and an African American!

Her interview encouraged me not to give up my dream, but perhaps to modify it, as she had done. So, no, I am probably never going to become a Carmelite, but I don't regret a moment of my time in Carmel. I don't know God's will for me but I know only that I am, as one priest told me, 'called to something, I just don't know what yet!' lol.

I admire you for your own journey and believe that if we all just offered more support and charity for each other, then we would go a long way towards helping each other live out our respective 'vocations'. Sometimes that isn't always evident with each other but I appreciate your words which have been this and more!
Yes, there is a fine distinction between God's will and Quietism, but I think many people err on the side of the heresy without realizing it - which can be just another form of giving up too soon! Of course, it helps if one has spiritual guidance from a holy and learned source.

[BarbTherese]

[quote]Barb - one of the most inspiring women I have heard speak recently (on radio) is Major Shawna Kimbrell, USAF. She was a motorcyle cop and then wanted to be a jet fighter pilot despite the fact that the Air Force had no African American female fighter pilots. She trained hard but came fourth when there were only two places open. She didn't give up, but trained instead to be a helicopter combat fighter pilot and decided that she had to pass first in her class to guarantee a place, which she did, and became the first female African American combat fighter pilot.... through numerous experiences of prejudice for being both a woman and an African American!

Her interview encouraged me not to give up my dream, but perhaps to modify it, as she had done. So, no, I am probably never going to become a Carmelite, but I don't regret a moment of my time in Carmel. I don't know God's will for me but I know only that I am, as one priest told me, 'called to something, I just don't know what yet!' lol.[/quote]

I dont think anyone, whether they express it or not, cannot fail to be admiring and inspired by your own journey! I was really moved a while back by quite a few posts here begging God to be kind to Nunsense since He has led you on such a difficult journey. I thought to myself that never had more true words probably been spoken. If we want to ponder what Love is than the Parable of The Good Samaritan is a good place to start. And if we want to measure our love then "how can you say you Love God, whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see?" Our love of God can be measured by just how much we love and care for and about each other and without qualifications, even those who may be our 'enemies'.

As long as you desire to enter religious life and you have the qualities necessary - and you do in that your mental and physical health is sound, you possibly do have a vocation. These are not 'accidents of fate' but Gifts of God and we are called to use the gifts He has given us to His Glory. And it follows too, that if a religious order is prepared to accept you, then this is a further sign of religious vocation. That is simple theology. After acceptance and entrance into a religious order, the years of discernment by the community and the applicant then follow. It could be said that the final 'statment by God' that this person is called by Me to to this community is at final profession.

I like to say that The Holy Spirit is no snob. Very often we are religiously or spiritually inspired by something that is quite secular even not at all Catholic. "The Lord moves in strange ways" to us at times. When we very least expect it, God speaks to us, and in a way at times that may be the least expected. Hence if you are inspired by Major Shawna Kimbrell, USAF and her story, give thanks for it and follow that inspiration to wherever it may lead. Gold, after all, is simply where it is, where we find it. There is a beautiful hymn at Night Prayer :

"Lead kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom
Lead Thou me on.
The night is dark, and I am far from home,
Lead thou me on.
Keep Thou my feet, I do not ask to see
The distant scene
Lead Thou me on"

"Encircling gloom" can be when it feels as if most all are against us. "The night is dark" this could mean when we are not understanding. "Far from home" - home is a place of belonging.

I sure can well recall when I felt God calling me, but had no idea at all to what. The mistake that can be made (and not necessarily yours) is that one can be aware of being called and answers 'The Lord's question' with what one wants oneself. I love some of our humns and the "Gallilee Song" is another one:
[quote]As I gaze into the night down the future of my years,
I’m not sure I want to walk past horizons that I know!
But I feel my spirit called like a stirring deep within,
restless, ’til I live again beyond the fears that close me in!

So I leave my boats behind!
Leave them on familiar shores!
Set my heart upon the deep!
Follow you again, my Lord![/quote]

Of course, some feel called and they know to what. Others know they are called, being called - but to what they have no idea but in Faith and trust in God set out upon the deep and follow their Lord to wherever He may lead.


[quote]I admire you for your own journey and believe that if we all just offered more support and charity for each other, then we would go a long way towards helping each other live out our respective 'vocations'. Sometimes that isn't always evident with each other but I appreciate your words which have been this and more![/quote]

Charity, Love, is the heart of The Blessed Trinity and the Life of The Blessed Trinity, as Love is at the heart of The Church. It is Love that will draw us into Unity with God, nothing else. As St. Paul says "all these remain, but the greatest of these is Charity".
And truth, no matter how much truth or how well supported etc. we can be very sure is only half the truth if delivered or conveyed without Love. As love without truth is merely flattery.

[quote]Yes, there is a fine distinction between God's will and Quietism, but I think many people err on the side of the heresy without realizing it - which can be just another form of giving up too soon! Of course, it helps if one has spiritual guidance from a holy and learned source.[/quote]

If your heart is telling you do not give up, then do not give up. Seek wise and sound, holy spiritual direction. And dont settle for less than that - keep seeking until you find it. And if you cannot find it then have every confidence and trust that The Lord would never let you go astray. Never! Hold in your heart and mind that The Lord always and forever has His Good Reasons as strange even adverse things can seem to oneself. It is never easy, it is a cross and suffering, to 'swim against the tide' or to meet opposition and it is natural and normal that opposition may cause you to doubt yourself. Swim on and follow your heart, and try to often recall what some of our saints went through and let that be your guide. One of the prime reasons The Church canonizes is for our edification and encouragement in our own journeys and some will speak to our own journey very intimately more than others.
Our confirmation saints is our special patron and their lives will speak to us.

God continue to bless you and hold you close and my prayer will be that He fulfills the dreams and hopes of your heart - and He will. I know this. It may not be in the hopes you now have, or it may. But fulfillment there will be. The one and only thing, the sole and alone thing, that can separate us from God and His Love and Care is mortal sin. We have to choose to totally reject God and all He offers. But God Himself absolutely never, not even in the face of our total rejection and mortal sin, fails to go on Loving and Caring, Providing. The Lord is the All Faithful One - and always and forever. Free will, His Greatest Gift to us, can also be our enemy but we must clearly and freely choose, with full knowledge, to act in free will against our best interests.... Regards..........Barb

[AccountDeleted]

Sorry to anyone if Barb and I seem to have highjacked this thread, but I think it is still relevant that I started out discerning the Carmelite vocation and am now doing the same for the Benedictine, and learning so much along the way. Where we think we should be isn't always want God intends as a final destination. So our initial attraction to one community may serve a purpose, but it may not be where we finally discover our 'home'.

Last night I spoke with the Abbess where I really want to enter (in the UK), and she is trying to work out the date for my visit. She asked me to phone back on Thursday, which just happens to be my birthday as well! Although a birthday is a significant date for anyone, for me these days a birthday always means one year older and less likely to be accepted by a community so I tend to dread them.... but that's okay because age doesn't seem to be a problem for this Abbess. If all goes well, I will go in the European autumn for the visit... so please pray for me that I also get the job I am hoping for to pay for this visit! I had an interview last week and have good feelings about it... but as Barb mentioned one of my favourite hymns (Lead Kindly Light), I know it is 'one step enough for me'.

I would say that if a person feels a strong affinity for a particular community, then go for it, but don't be attached to it either. I think faithcecilia has gone through something similar in feeling one's heart in one place, but knowing that God might be calling us somewhere else... for His own reasons. That's why I prefer to work with a SD - to help discern the different feelings that pull us back and forth.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='FutureSister2009' timestamp='1307820577' post='2252415']
Why must there be so many communities when they all generally follow the same Charism and take mostly the same vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience? Why can't there just be one?
[/quote]

Good question - and perhaps prophetic and visionary. Who knows! Pre V2 if anyone had suggested the changes the Holy Spirit had in mind, they probably would have been declared heretical. Ah well, the stake is now banned as is questioning on the rack.
Here in Australia some religious orders are moving to involve lay people in their charism including by types of promises or vows ....... progress and progress is change.

[AccountDeleted]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2252415"][/url][quote] FutureSister2009, on 12 June 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

Why must there be so many communities when they all generally follow the same Charism and take mostly the same vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience? Why can't there just be one?
[/quote]

I don't think they are all the same charism at all. I have found that the different communities focus on different aspects of the monastic life to a greater or lesser degree. For example, the Franciscan charism has always been more focused on the vow of poverty than most other communities, and their emphasis was never on studying per se. St Anthony found it hard at first changing from the Augustinians to the Franciscans because he felt less humble than they were due to his advanced learning, but St Francis encouraged him to preach and share his gifts and training. The Dominicans, on the other hand, are very focused on learning and study, and are know specificially as preachers and teachers. The Carmelites have contemplation and mental prayer as their focus and the Benedictines stress the importance of the Divine Office as their main work of God. The Salesians focused on caring for young people, etc, etc, etc... These things all complement each other to build up and strengthen the Church. As St Paul said, the Spirit gives different gifts to each of us, and having different communities allows them to focus on a specific gift of the Spirit given to them.

The foundation is the same, but the expression is different - like flowers!

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1308021649' post='2253448']
Sorry to anyone if Barb and I seem to have highjacked this thread, but I think it is still relevant that I started out discerning the Carmelite vocation and am now doing the same for the Benedictine, and learning so much along the way. Where we think we should be isn't always want God intends as a final destination. So our initial attraction to one community may serve a purpose, but it may not be where we finally discover our 'home'.

Last night I spoke with the Abbess where I really want to enter (in the UK), and she is trying to work out the date for my visit. She asked me to phone back on Thursday, which just happens to be my birthday as well! Although a birthday is a significant date for anyone, for me these days a birthday always means one year older and less likely to be accepted by a community so I tend to dread them.... but that's okay because age doesn't seem to be a problem for this Abbess. If all goes well, I will go in the European autumn for the visit... so please pray for me that I also get the job I am hoping for to pay for this visit! I had an interview last week and have good feelings about it... but as Barb mentioned one of my favourite hymns (Lead Kindly Light), I know it is 'one step enough for me'.

I would say that if a person feels a strong affinity for a particular community, then go for it, but don't be attached to it either. I think faithcecilia has gone through something similar in feeling one's heart in one place, but knowing that God might be calling us somewhere else... for His own reasons. That's why I prefer to work with a SD - to help discern the different feelings that pull us back and forth.
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Which Benedictine community and where, Nunsense - can you say? Have you contacted the Tyburn Sisters in Riverstone, New South Wales ? Some time ago I heard they had accepted a mature aged applicant. There are also Benedictines in Jamberoo - but I dont know their position on later vocations.
I am keeping you in daily prayer by name especially for work and accommodation in Melbourne and sufficient funds to visit the UK - also all on Phatmass.

My apolgies if I have hijacked the thread off topic


And may Thursday bring you many joys and in the year ahead.

[Adele]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="4"]Hello, everyone! This is my first post. I am a 50-year-old woman...despite the masculine silhouette which I haven't figured out how to change yet. (I hope that after this post I will be able to make some personalizations!) Anyway, my heart is set on Carmel, even though I did not persevere in two Discalced Carmelite monasteries. I intend to find another community willing to accept me (or ask a former Prioress if she would take me back) but I always wonder if this persistent desire for Carmel is in conformity with God's Will or just my own. (I am looking for a Spiritual Director but each time I've found a Priest that I thought I could trust/obey, I found out he was leaving my area. So please pray I find a Director to help me determine my suitablity for religious life (especially cloistered life) and one that can help me work on the spiritual problems that prevented me from persevering in Carmel.) But, to answer the original question, I have been attracted to the Benedictines, the Poor Clares (until I think about 6 hours of sleep interrupted by the midnight Office, that is), and even a few active Congregations, but the strong feeling that Carmel is the only place [i]for me[/i] eventually puts an end to such thoughts. I hope this is an indication of a call to Carmel...what great peace it would be to know God's Will![i] [/i][/size][/font]