Indepth Look On The 7Th Commandment "thou Shall Not Steal"

[White Knight]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

[quote] [b]2432-2434[/b]"Those responsible for buisness enterprises are responsible to society for economic and ecological effects of their operations. [b][u]They have an obligation to consider the good of the persons and not only the increase of profits.[/u][/b] Profits are necessary, however. They make possible the investments that ensure the future of a buisness and they guarantee employment."

"[b]Access to employment and to professions must be open to all without unjust discrimination: [/b]men, and women, healthy and disabled, natives and immgrants. For its part society should according to circumstances, [i][u]help citzens find work and employment[/u]."[/i]

"A Just wage is the legitimate fruit of work. [u][b]To refuse or withhold it can be a grave injustice[/b]. [/u]In determining fair pay both the needs and the contributions of each person must be taken into account. Reemuneration for work sould guarantee man the opportunity to provide a dignified livelihood for himself and his family on the material, social, cultural, and spiritual level taking into account the role and the productivity of each, the state of buisness, and the common good. Agreement between the parties is not sufficient to justify morally the amount to be received in wages. pg 644[/quote]


EXODUS 20:15 "You shall not steal."

DEUTERONOMY 5:19 "You shall not steal."


[color="#0000FF"]Okay, well we know that the 7th commandment is pretty broad in its general understanding. It can be narrowed down to the more obvious cases too. Lets go dig deeper, shall we?

[b]When an employeer cheats a person out of justifiable pay that the employee rightly earned by his or her hardwork. rather they are underpaid, or never paid, which is the more lighter and heavier offense?[/b]

The fact that the person who spent all that time working, hard spending hours of his or her life, and not getting paid for it, thus loosing that time they spent, and never getting it back, the immaterial factor "Time is something we can't get back, but materials can always be replaced."

However taking in the material factor of things, stealing a workers pay or underpaying them, for doing hard work, seems like even if it is a large portion would be the more likely one to be solvable....

[b]So is stealing time, energy, and/or talent a greater crime than stealing anything of material value?[/b]

[b]Does stealing when it comes to life and death, for survivial proposes, become a lesser offense? bread, water? clothes? When to die would be a greater crime?[/b]

Stealing a candy bar is a lesser crime, than ceo's stealing from ENRON Profits which obviously a much bigger deal than the candy bar.[/color]


Tell me what you guys think, I know the Catechism of the Catholic Church has many paragraphs on this topic, so many to post.


God Bless You, and Peace of the Lord be with You

[havok579257]

stealing a small amount from a rich man is a venial sin.

stealing a small amount(1 dollar) from a poor man is a grave sin and with consent/knowledge is a mortal sin.

stealing to feed you starving family is not a sin.

stealing from a poor man to feed your starving family is a grave sin and with consent/knowledge is a mortal sin.

stealing a workers time depends on upon how much time is stolen. i would hazard a guess if an employeer stole 5 minutes of an employees time one single time then it might be a venial sin, although not sure. although to steal a signifigant portion of an employees wages is a grave sin and with consent/knowledge is a mortal sin.

[CatherineM]

Certainly includes plagiarism and using someones works without payment or permission.

[dairygirl4u2c]

this could and should turn into a political debate, given the conservatives rouind these parts is always sayin how taxes are essentially taking money from people at gun point, or at least at 'go to jail if ya dont' point. taxes that are 'excessive', which usually includes anything that would be used for assisting those who have nothing.
personally, sometimes it's okay, sometimes not, to assist via government... but to some it's never persmissible, and to others it's overboard okay.

[faithcecelia]

I remember spending some time going through this but can't remember where. New Dawn maybe? I know it also came up that as well as employers needing to pay a fair wage, the employee needs to do a proper days work. Standing chatting in the loos/at the water fountain in work time could be considered theft. Using the internet for personal reasons without permission is theft, etc. And what about the pen/post-its/photocopying that 'no one will notice'???

I think we all need to be aware of ourselves and what we do, so we don't get into the habit of taking things and people for granted, or thinking 'well everyone does it'.

[dells_of_bittersweet]

It definitely applies to pirating music, movies, and other intellectual property over the internet.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dells_of_bittersweet' timestamp='1310614584' post='2267255']
It definitely applies to pirating music, movies, and other intellectual property over the internet.
[/quote]
Is it/should it be illegal to:
[list]
[*]listen to a song on the radio which you have not paid for?
[*]listen to a song being played by an individual with whom you are not personally acquainted (via loudspeaker or similar)?
[*]listen to a song that a friend has purchased but which you have not?
[*]have a friend make you a copy of a track/album for personal enjoyment which he has paid for but you have not?
[/list]
Just curious as to where you draw the line.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I'm too sleepy right now to even attempt an intelligent post, but I wanted to compliment you--This is a GREAT topic, and unlike so many other topics, is not one that has already been discussed over and over and over.......(or at least not that I can remember.)

Also, I LOVE your new Avatar! (If it's not new, then I really AM sleepy, because I hadn't noticed it before).

Edited July 14, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310614867' post='2267257']
Is it/should it be illegal to:
[list][*]listen to a song on the radio which you have not paid for?[*]listen to a song being played by an individual with whom you are not personally acquainted (via loudspeaker or similar)?[*]listen to a song that a friend has purchased but which you have not?[*]have a friend make you a copy of a track/album for personal enjoyment which he has paid for but you have not?[/list]
Just curious as to where you draw the line.
[/quote]

no
no
no
yes


Short answers for now, like Ignatius I am also a sleepy head

[havok579257]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310614867' post='2267257']
Is it/should it be illegal to:
[list]
[*]listen to a song on the radio which you have not paid for?
[*]listen to a song being played by an individual with whom you are not personally acquainted (via loudspeaker or similar)?
[*]listen to a song that a friend has purchased but which you have not?
[*]have a friend make you a copy of a track/album for personal enjoyment which he has paid for but you have not?
[/list]
Just curious as to where you draw the line.
[/quote]


listening to a song on the radio is free, so its not stealing.

although downloading a copy of a song you did not pay for, when we all know full well the artist wants to be paid for their work is stealing.

anytime you are taking something that should be paid for, you are depriving the originator a fair wage and stealing from them.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310614867' post='2267257']
Is it/should it be illegal to:
[list]
[*]listen to a song on the radio which you have not paid for?
[*]listen to a song being played by an individual with whom you are not personally acquainted (via loudspeaker or similar)?
[*]listen to a song that a friend has purchased but which you have not?
[*]have a friend make you a copy of a track/album for personal enjoyment which he has paid for but you have not?
[/list]
[/quote]
Addendum:
Should it be illegal to copy a CD you have purchased for your own use?

[Lisa]

What about listening to a song on YouTube not put up by the artist? You aren't making a copy of it so some people would say it's the same as letting a friend listen to their copy. But it also allows people to listen to it as much as they like without actually going out to buy it.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Lisa

[dairygirl4u2c]

there's long comprehensive debates on the mp3 and such issue.
long short for me, is that i say that if it's music you wouldn't otherwise buy... just download it. if you'd have bought it, then buy it. this requies you be honest about the situation. it's arguably just as akin as making a copy of something material... eg, you dont buy the weight bench, so you make one yourself. i'm not sure if it's more like that or more like stealing on its face... but at the end of the day, the maker artist etc isn't out anything, and you're just enjoying their music which they should like.. so i dont know practically what the big deal is.
inherently wrong, no ends means being justified? i dont know, but even if there was a ends means issue here, it's so proportionally not a big deal when ya download songs ya otherwise wouldnt buy. and i'm a proportionalist, not a deontologist (though i usually only am so when its' a necessity, like people dying... not fringe benefits like mp3s

Edited July 14, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c