Medical Marijuana In Montana

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310139597' post='2264461']
It was the abolitionists, and not the slave states, that were fighting for states' rights? Quite a twist of events.

The alignment between the medical marijuana crowd and slavery proponents is closer than the abolitionists.
"It's a state's right issue."
"Who are you to tell me what I can do on my land?"
"Slavery is 'instead of an evil, a good—a positive good.'"
"Slavery is economically beneficial."[/quote]
It wasn't "Abolitionists" who forced the government's hand, it was the division of free and slave states. Abolitionists were part of the movement, but the Civil War was fought over the Union of states, not over individual people. Medical marijuana is not an individual movement, it is a state movement, and it is growing. In 15 years there are already 16 states that have legalized medical marijuana (each state with their own laws, of course). This is indeed a growing [i]state[/i] movement. The comparison with Abolition is that an issue or a movement grows from state to state until it becomes a national issue. Considering that medical marijuana remains illegal in federal law, eventually it's going to cause a problem when all these states have legalized medical marijuana, and the federal government will have to deal with the will of the states. It has already caused a problem for the federal government, but the medical marijuana movement is still growing, so it will become more of a problem as the movement grows into new states.

[quote]Some of those arguments echo the pro-homosexual marriage crowd. But, that's for another thread...
[/quote]
Well of course it does. Everyone in America, regardless of what they are fighting for, is operating in the same system. Getting things done generally is going to follow the same patterns, regardless of what you're trying to get done. You try to get laws passed and build legislative victories in individual states, and as your movement grows, you try to win national legislative victories. This is true for medical marijuana, homosexual marriage, abortion, presidential elections, whatever.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Era Might

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310141121' post='2264481']
It wasn't "Abolitionists" who forced the government's hand, it was the division of free and slave states. Abolitionists were part of the movement, but the Civil War was fought over the Union of states, not over individual people. Medical marijuana is not an individual movement, it is a state movement, and it is growing. In 15 years there are already 16 states that have legalized medical marijuana (each state with their own laws, of course). This is indeed a growing [i]state[/i] movement. The comparison with Abolition is that an issue or a movement grows from state to state until it becomes a national issue. Considering that medical marijuana remains illegal in federal law, eventually it's going to cause a problem when all these states have legalized medical marijuana, and the federal government will have to deal with the will of the states. It has already caused a problem for the federal government, but the medical marijuana movement is still growing, so it will become more of a problem as the movement grows into new states.[/quote]
As I stated, "It was the abolitionists, and not the slave states, that were fighting for states' rights? Quite a twist of events." States' rights... not the rights of individuals. Movements start with individuals. The individuals changed the states. And, the states changed the union.

There is a coming federal vs. state clash over the issue since the feds have begun looking away. It would be wrong for this issue to get caught up in recent justified anti-federalism fever. There are plenty of issues of federal overreach worth dealing with. This isn't one.

[quote]Well of course it does. Everyone in America, regardless of what they are fighting for, is operating in the same system. Getting things done generally is going to follow the same patterns, regardless of what you're trying to get done. You try to get laws passed and build legislative victories in individual states, and as your movement grows, you try to win national legislative victories. This is true for medical marijuana, homosexual marriage, abortion, presidential elections, whatever.
[/quote]
Movements operate within the same system, but their catalysts are not all the same. My point is in the case of medical marijuana or marijuana legalization and homosexual marriage, there are similarities. At the center of them is the great "[b]I[/b]" and the belief freedom equals license.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310150205' post='2264551']There are plenty of issues of federal overreach worth dealing with. This isn't one.[/quote]
I disagree. Not only should it be dealt with, but it will be, not only because the number of states legalizing medical marijuana is growing, but because it ties in to other national issues (the "war on drugs", the drug violence in Mexico, overcrowded prisons, etc).

[quote]Movements operate within the same system, but their catalysts are not all the same. My point is in the case of medical marijuana or marijuana legalization and homosexual marriage, there are similarities. At the center of them is the great "[b]I[/b]" and the belief freedom equals license.
[/quote]
Are there people who support marijuana legalization because they want the right to get high? Of course. There are also people who support alcohol legalization because they want the right to get drunk. There are plenty of reasons to support alcohol legalization that have nothing to do with getting drunk, and there are plenty of reasons to support marijuana legalization that have nothing to do with getting high. I personally don't even drink alcohol, but I would not support a return to Prohibition.

In some cases, freedom (that is, social freedom, not personal freedom) does equal license. America tried alcohol Prohibition. It failed. America is still trying marijuana prohibition. We'll see what happens in the next century, but the fact that 16 states have already legalized medical marijuana means that this is an issue that is not going away.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Era Might

[Era Might]

By the way, in reference to the original topic of this thread (medical marijuana in Montana), parts of SB 423 were blocked by a Montana judge:

[quote](Reuters) - A judge has blocked parts of a Montana law that would have imposed tough new restrictions on state-sanctioned medical marijuana suppliers starting on Friday.

In a preliminary injunction issued on Thursday, state District Judge James Reynolds in Helena ruled those limits would effectively deny access to pot for many patients entitled to use it under the state's 7-year-old medical marijuana statute.

Reynolds said in his 15-page ruling that he was refraining from making a judgment about whether marijuana has medical benefits, noting that issue already had been decided by Montana voters and the state Legislature.

Instead, he said provisions of the law passed earlier this year to overhaul the original voter-approved 2004 ballot measure legalizing pot for medicinal purposes went too far.

Reynolds specifically blocked provisions outlawing any profits in the supply of medical marijuana, including a ban on growers charging customers to recoup the cost of cultivation and a ban on advertising and promotion of medicinal pot.

He also barred enforcement of sections of the new law limiting cultivation to no more than three patients per supplier.

"The court is unaware of and has not been shown where any person in any other licensed and lawful industry in Montana -- be he a barber, an accountant, a lawyer or a doctor -- who, providing a legal product or service, is denied the right to charge for that service or is limited in the number of people he or she can serve," Reynolds wrote.

He added that such restrictions "will certainly limit the number of willing providers and will thereby deny the access of Montanans otherwise eligible for medical marijuana to this legal product and thereby deny these persons this fundamental right of seeking their health in a lawful manner."

[...]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/01/us-marijuana-montana-idUSTRE7600OR20110701[/quote]

Edited July 8, 2011 by Era Might

[Lil Red]

[url="http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-pro-marijuana-arguments-that-arent-helping/"]funny and relevant article[/url] (it's from cracked.com, so NSFW)

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310150977' post='2264561']
I disagree. Not only should it be dealt with, but it will be, not only because the number of states legalizing medical marijuana is growing, but because it ties in to other national issues (the "war on drugs", the drug violence in Mexico, overcrowded prisons, etc).[/quote]
It should be dealt with, but not as an issue of federal overreach, but a case of federal neglect.

[quote]Are there people who support marijuana legalization because they want the right to get high? Of course. There are also people who support alcohol legalization because they want the right to get drunk. There are plenty of reasons to support alcohol legalization that have nothing to do with getting drunk, and there are plenty of reasons to support marijuana legalization that have nothing to do with getting high. I personally don't even drink alcohol, but I would not support a return to Prohibition.[/quote]
I have yet heard a logical reason for the legalization of marijuana. "Because it's prohibited" is definitely inadequate.

I am not for or against alcohol. I support dry counties if that is what the people choose. I do not support the deceptive arguments of the pro-alcohol sales side of an election, which decides if a dry county goes wet.

[quote]In some cases, freedom (that is, social freedom, not personal freedom) does equal license. America tried alcohol Prohibition. It failed. America is still trying marijuana prohibition. We'll see what happens in the next century, but the fact that 16 states have already legalized medical marijuana means that this is an issue that is not going away.
[/quote]
By what measure was prohibition a failure?

Law puts in place many prohibitions. A prohibition is not unjustified because it's a prohibition and the people want to do otherwise.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1310162229' post='2264694']
[url="http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-pro-marijuana-arguments-that-arent-helping/"]funny and relevant article[/url] (it's from cracked.com, so NSFW)
[/quote]
I've seen that somewhere before.... [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113295&view=findpost&p=2264314"]but where???[/url]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310162320' post='2264696']
I've seen that somewhere before.... [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113295&view=findpost&p=2264314"]but where???[/url]
[/quote]
sorry, i just skimmed this page.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310162255' post='2264695']By what measure was prohibition a failure?[/quote]
The fact that it was repealed. (Not to mention the black market it created and the underworld violence that went with it).

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310162255' post='2264695']Law puts in place many prohibitions. A prohibition is not unjustified because it's a prohibition and the people want to do otherwise.
[/quote]
A prohibition is not justified because it's a prohibition and the government wants to prohibit what's being prohibited. The American people decide their own laws. Therefore, if they want to decriminalize medical marijuana, they have the right to go about trying to change the laws (as they have been doing for the last 15 years).

If you want to fight against the decriminalization of medical marijuana, that is also your right as an American. But in my opinion, you will be on the wrong side of history. 16 states and counting.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Era Might

[dUSt]

[quote name='Sylvanna Imbris' timestamp='1307585124' post='2251503'][img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg/380px-Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg.png[/img][/quote]

Based on this chart I want some of that Khat! Looks amesome! Where do I get it?

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310162630' post='2264701']
The fact that it was repealed. (Not to mention the black market it created and the underworld violence that went with it).[/quote]
Its repeal means as much to its failure as its existence meant its success. Neither point to its efficacy. The numbers show it to be a success.

[quote]A prohibition is not justified because it's a prohibition and the government wants to prohibit what's being prohibited. The American people decide their own laws. Therefore, if they want to decriminalize medical marijuana, they have the right to go about trying to change the laws (as they have been doing for the last 15 years).[/quote]
The people can decide their civil laws so long as it is not contrary to higher laws. The American system is not an ordered system to vote on doing whatever we want to do without consequence.

[quote]If you want to fight against the decriminalization of medical marijuana, that is also your right as an American. But in my opinion, you will be on the wrong side of history. 16 states and counting.[/quote]
I'll also fight decriminalized abortions. 50 states and counting. The right or wrong side of an issue is not judged by a movement's momentum. I'll continue to stand for what's right and logical. And if that causes me to have to swim against the current, so be it.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1310169110' post='2264743']I'll also fight decriminalized abortions. 50 states and counting. The right or wrong side of an issue is not judged by a movement's momentum. I'll continue to stand for what's right and logical. And if that causes me to have to swim against the current, so be it.
[/quote]
Marijuana and abortion. Good comparison.

Other good comparisons:

Tylenol and Genocide
Vodka and Terrorism
Tobacco and English Muffins

Edited July 9, 2011 by Era Might

[sixpence]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1310169987' post='2264749']
Marijuana and abortion. Good comparison.

Other good comparisons:

Tylenol and Genocide
Vodka and Terrorism
Tobacco and English Muffins
[/quote]

I'm sorry I know this was not meant to be funny... but I just laughed out loud

[sixpence]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1310164401' post='2264714']
Based on this chart I want some of that Khat! Looks amesome! Where do I get it?
[/quote]

really? I was thinking heroin...

[Ice_nine]

I agree some people who are vocal about legalization are freaking annoying and act like marijuana is the cureall to every social and economic problem. These people are stupid, and just because you can combat their ridiculous arguments does not illegitimatize anti-prohibition arguments.

But whatever, I suppose people cannot get past the bias as it is pretty deep-seated. I was heavily against it for most of my life (granted I'm only 21), but after quite a bit of time researching it I've changed my mind. Some people won't, and I guess when emotions run high on both sides it's hard to have a sane discussion.

Seacrest out