Should We Try To Die A Violent Death ?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307486616' post='2251008']
I don't know any Catholics that do anything this extreme, not even religious.
[/quote]
Don't visit the Phillipines.
I thought about posting a picture, but they're all rather graphic, and potentially upsetting to some people, but some people in the Philippines will crucify themselves.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307486964' post='2251021']
my mom prayed the rosary on her knees going up the Holy Stairs in the Holy Land.
[/quote]
I got hit over the head by an umbrella when I tried to help a little old lady up in Mexico. They walk on their knees towards the shrine. I thought she had fallen. I think I have the lump still.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307489280' post='2251054']
Don't visit the Phillipines.
I thought about posting a picture, but they're all rather graphic, and potentially upsetting to some people, but some people in the Philippines will crucify themselves.
[/quote]

Woops! Forgot about that. I've seen that on tv and it turned my stomach. How stupid and ridiculoous

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307489280' post='2251054']
Don't visit the Phillipines.
I thought about posting a picture, but they're all rather graphic, and potentially upsetting to some people, but some people in the Philippines will crucify themselves.
[/quote]


I had to look and see, and this is horrible, so thanks for not posting! I simply cannot believe God wants us to do this to ourselves.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think that more serious mortification, when done, should be only under the supervision of a spiritual director, and exceedingly discrete. That whole thing in Matthew 6.

[1] Take heed that you do not your justice before men, to be seen by them: otherwise you shall not have a reward of your Father who is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. [3] But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth. [4] That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. [5] And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. [7] And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. [8] Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. [9] Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen. [14] For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. [15] But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.
[16] And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. [17] But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face; [18] That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee. [19] Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal. [20] But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307502464' post='2251109']
I think that more serious mortification, when done, should be only under the supervision of a spiritual director, and exceedingly discrete. That whole thing in Matthew 6.

[1] Take heed that you do not your justice before men, to be seen by them: otherwise you shall not have a reward of your Father who is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou dost an almsdeed, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honoured by men. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. [3] But when thou dost alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doth. [4] That thy alms may be in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. [5] And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.
[6] But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. [7] And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. [8] Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. [9] Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen. [14] For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. [15] But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.
[16] And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. [17] But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face; [18] That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee. [19] Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal. [20] But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.
[/quote]




I have heard Protestants use this Scripture to say that the repetitions of the Hail Mary in the Rosary
are wrong.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307503419' post='2251118']
I have heard Protestants use this Scripture to say that the repetitions of the Hail Mary in the Rosary
are wrong.
[/quote]

Tell them to break open the Bible to Matt. 26:44, Luke 18:13, and Rev. 4:8.

Edited June 8, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307503419' post='2251118']
I have heard Protestants use this Scripture to say that the repetitions of the Hail Mary in the Rosary
are wrong.
[/quote]
That's really such a sadly shallow reading of those passages.

[fides' Jack]

Lil Red - Thanks for the backup! It's much appreciated!

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1307473552' post='2250883']
I think that ALL of the people who flog themselves are missing the point, and that suffering like that is nothing more than a stupid waste of their time -- which could be put to use doing something good!

I know that Christians argue against violence, but in cases where you physically stick up for somebody -- in my experience -- you almost always get hurt. And some people might argue "I didn't get involved because I'm a Christian and I don't believe in violence." But you feel like saying "No you didn't get involved because you were being a coward!"

And going against the crowd and sticking up for what is right is similar -- in my mind. It's almost easier to take a physical risk than to "go against the crowd" or to disagree with peers -- who are pushing you to do something that you shouldn't.
[/quote]

So, when the saints did that they were waisting their time? In light of that fact, I think that you don't understand why a holy person might do that.


[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307488291' post='2251042']
It depends on the dispositions of their hearts when they are doing this. Otherwise it would
be useless and unredemptive suffering. One has to be moved by the Holy Spirit to do this.
And it should be done only under obedience.
[/quote]

As I said also - it depends on the dispositions. But it's also worth noting that some think they are moved by the Holy Spirit but are really moved by the devil to do this. In fact, it may even be true that most who think they are "called" to this fall into the latter category.

But the idea still stands. What is it about modern living that takes away our understanding of something so fundamental to Christian life as the graces that come from suffering, and the holiness and humility in suffering for others and wanting to suffer for others? Is it just laziness and always being in a state of comfort?

[fides' Jack]

"Qui non zelat, non amat."

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307535591' post='2251211']
That's really such a sadly shallow reading of those passages.
[/quote]

It is very much that. How they get that out of it is beyond me. If they even got to know the Blessed Mother,
as some Protestants do, they would love Her and they couldn't say that.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307506837' post='2251133']
Tell them to break open the Bible to Matt. 26:44, Luke 18:13, and Rev. 4:8.
[/quote]

okay

[Debra Little]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1307563234' post='2251385']
Lil Red - Thanks for the backup! It's much appreciated!



So, when the saints did that they were waisting their time? In light of that fact, I think that you don't understand why a holy person might do that.




As I said also - it depends on the dispositions. But it's also worth noting that some think they are moved by the Holy Spirit but are really moved by the devil to do this. In fact, it may even be true that most who think they are "called" to this fall into the latter category.

But the idea still stands. What is it about modern living that takes away our understanding of something so fundamental to Christian life as the graces that come from suffering, and the holiness and humility in suffering for others and wanting to suffer for others? Is it just laziness and always being in a state of comfort?
[/quote]




Consider the way the Church is today. That should answer your question. Priests don't teach things like this and mental prayer
because they don't know themselves. Or they have a very watered down view of suffering. Accept your crosses is all they say
but it goes no further.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1307470617' post='2250869']
The ideas of "pain" and "happiness" are not mutually exclusive. One can be very happy and be in a great deal of pain. In fact, pain itself can bring happiness.
[/quote]

Very true. Happiness should never be confused with mere comfort. Many of the times in our life that are very trying and 'uncomfortable' also end up being the happiest. That's because true joy can come in difficult times as well as easy ones.

But suffering goes beyond mere discomfort or physical pain, too. Suffering may lead to joy, but is not itself generally a joyful event. Many people (not me) can suffer cheerfully, but joyfully? That's...a heck of a lot more difficult.

Not saying it can't happen, just pointing out that usually people experience the joy [i]after[/i] the suffering has passed.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307592092' post='2251550']
Very true. Happiness should never be confused with mere comfort. Many of the times in our life that are very trying and 'uncomfortable' also end up being the happiest. That's because true joy can come in difficult times as well as easy ones.

But suffering goes beyond mere discomfort or physical pain, too. Suffering may lead to joy, but is not itself generally a joyful event. Many people (not me) can suffer cheerfully, but joyfully? That's...a heck of a lot more difficult.

Not saying it can't happen, just pointing out that usually people experience the joy [i]after[/i] the suffering has passed.
[/quote]

Point taken - and well stated.