Should We Try To Die A Violent Death ?

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1307419503' post='2250703']
One of the differences I have noticed between Protestantism and Catholicism is the view on suffering. It seems protestants tend to lean more towards living a peacefull and prosperous life. And that there is nothing wrong with it and it is to be desired. Now I'm not gonna say Catholicism doesn't encourage peace and prosperity because I think it does. But it seems to find more of a place and meaning for suffering. Almost as if physical pain is something we should want. Saints have prayed for physical pain right? (Not sure) Should a person desire pain and want it in their life ? Does God want us to experience physical pain ? Is it pleasing to Him ? Should one set out to die a violent death ?
[/quote]




Until I became a Catholic I had no reason for my suffering and I thought,
for a long time, that all the suffering in my life was stupid and useless.
When I was with the Carmelites, they taught me that there was a reason
for suffering and of its redemptive value.

Now I love suffering. I don't go looking for it, there is plenty without doing that. But
I joyfully take whatever God gives me.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1307420414' post='2250704']
Thank you, you said what I've been thinking for some time. You are absolutely right!

Yeah what does just suffering achieve? It seems that some Catholics are actually pleased by the amount that they've suffered. And if they haven't suffered then they must be doing something wrong, right? They can do charitable work without suffering. It seems to me that some of the things that Catholics do like walking on their knees for miles, or beating themselves -- is just plain stupid!
[/quote]

I don't know any Catholics that do anything this extreme, not even religious.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1307420928' post='2250707']
Should we try to die a violent death?
Absolutely not.

Should we seek out suffering?
Absolutely not.

Should we flee from pain and suffering if we can?
Absolutely.

Should we avoid pain and suffering by compromising our faith and/our our virtues and morals?
Absolutely not.

Jesus did not run from suffering, but He did not avoid what was necessary for our salvation. He told us that "Blessed are those who are persecuted for my name's sake." - not "Blessed are those who run away from pain to live another day!"

When it can be avoided - by all means, do so. But if it can not be avoided then embrace it as He did, and offer it as He did, for the salvation of souls. He told us that the world would not treat us better than it treated Our Lord, and we should not expect it to.

Sometimes Protestants think that material success indicates that one is pleasing God (my impression) but Jesus told us that "Blessed are the poor."

Anything can be carried to extreme... use common sense.
[/quote]




I read an article on a Catholic website not too long ago and it was about suffering. I can't even remember
the link or would share it. But it really opened my eyes and I understand this better than ever before.
One of the things it said in the very beginning was that we tend to run away from pain. That is natural.
We need to welcome suffering when it comes because suffering increases love and increased loved \
increases the desire to suffer. No going to look for it is wrong and just plain stupid. There is enough
suffering in life without doing that. But there is nothing wrong with welcoming it when it does come.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307486549' post='2251007']
Until I became a Catholic I had no reason for my suffering and I thought,
for a long time, that all the suffering in my life was stupid and useless.
When I was with the Carmelites, they taught me that there was a reason
for suffering and of its redemptive value.

Now I love suffering. I don't go looking for it, there is plenty without doing that. But
I joyfully take whatever God gives me.
[/quote]
beautiful, thank you for sharing.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307462292' post='2250809']
Yes, I agree with what's been said.

It is human nature to want to avoid suffering. Let's face it, it's no fun to be sick or in pain or poor or lonely or what have you. It's much nicer to have a 'happy life' where everything goes well and nobody gets cancer.

But...real life isn't always like that. Suffering happens. Hearts are broken, we go through pain.

Catholic theology isn't about seeking out suffering, but rather, offers an insight into how to deal with it. Suffering is not a curse; it's an opportunity. As unpleasant as it is, we can grow so much in our faith and love for one another through trying times. No one [i]wants[/i] to suffer, but if you [i]must[/i] suffer anyway, isn't it good to know that there is some purpose to it? That God is with you in your suffering? And that you have the opportunity to unite your suffering to Christ's suffering on the cross?

Catholics aren't told to go in search of suffering...but we are told to 'offer it up' when we do suffer.

There is merit in dying a martyr's death, but you don't 'seek out' martyrdom. You seek to live your life for Christ, and somethings that means that a martyr's death will be demanded of you. Likewise, there is merit in drawn-out suffering before death, in that you can unite your suffering to Christ's and atone for some of your own faults or offer it up for the souls in purgatory. But that doesn't mean you have to wish for a painful death. You are in fact invited to pray from the blessing of a happy death, and the patron of that is St. Joseph, since he likely had both Jesus and Mary with him when he died.
[/quote]




St.Therese said, "if there was no pain where would be the merit?"

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307486616' post='2251008']
I don't know any Catholics that do anything this extreme, not even religious.
[/quote]
my mom prayed the rosary on her knees going up the Holy Stairs in the Holy Land.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307486964' post='2251021']
my mom prayed the rosary on her knees going up the Holy Stairs in the Holy Land.
[/quote]

wow! how cool!

[Debra Little]

Here is the article. I'm having trouble getting it to go in right.


I think you will have to Google it. Look for Maronite Monks on Suffering by
the Maronite Monks of Adoration.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Debra Little

[Debra Little]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307462292' post='2250809']
Yes, I agree with what's been said.

It is human nature to want to avoid suffering. Let's face it, it's no fun to be sick or in pain or poor or lonely or what have you. It's much nicer to have a 'happy life' where everything goes well and nobody gets cancer.

But...real life isn't always like that. Suffering happens. Hearts are broken, we go through pain.

Catholic theology isn't about seeking out suffering, but rather, offers an insight into how to deal with it. Suffering is not a curse; it's an opportunity. As unpleasant as it is, we can grow so much in our faith and love for one another through trying times. No one [i]wants[/i] to suffer, but if you [i]must[/i] suffer anyway, isn't it good to know that there is some purpose to it? That God is with you in your suffering? And that you have the opportunity to unite your suffering to Christ's suffering on the cross?

Catholics aren't told to go in search of suffering...but we are told to 'offer it up' when we do suffer.

There is merit in dying a martyr's death, but you don't 'seek out' martyrdom. You seek to live your life for Christ, and somethings that means that a martyr's death will be demanded of you. Likewise, there is merit in drawn-out suffering before death, in that you can unite your suffering to Christ's and atone for some of your own faults or offer it up for the souls in purgatory. But that doesn't mean you have to wish for a painful death. You are in fact invited to pray from the blessing of a happy death, and the patron of that is St. Joseph, since he likely had both Jesus and Mary with him when he died.
[/quote]



Before I understood this I thought that most of my life was a waste. Now I know differently.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1307420928' post='2250707']
Should we try to die a violent death?
Absolutely not.

Should we seek out suffering?
Absolutely not.

Should we flee from pain and suffering if we can?
Absolutely.

Should we avoid pain and suffering by compromising our faith and/our our virtues and morals?
Absolutely not.

Jesus did not run from suffering, but He did not avoid what was necessary for our salvation. He told us that "Blessed are those who are persecuted for my name's sake." - not "Blessed are those who run away from pain to live another day!"

When it can be avoided - by all means, do so. But if it can not be avoided then embrace it as He did, and offer it as He did, for the salvation of souls. He told us that the world would not treat us better than it treated Our Lord, and we should not expect it to.

Sometimes Protestants think that material success indicates that one is pleasing God (my impression) but Jesus told us that "Blessed are the poor."

Anything can be carried to extreme... use common sense.
[/quote]




A lot of people don't have common sense.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307422990' post='2250718']
[/quote]

I am a happy person now that I know that. I have a joyful heart. That was not
possible before. If I didn't love the Cross I might as well give up because most
of my life has been suffering. The Carmelite mother used to say to me, "I
think God loves you more than the rest of us put together." I would say to her
Reverence, "I wish He would love me a little less." Now I want the more.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1307470436' post='2250867']
Nobody has really addressed one of the questions asked (or maybe implied). I don't know if saints have prayed for physical pain, but certain saints have flogged themselves (in a very holy way).

I don't think it's accurate to say that we should never seek suffering and pain.


The truth is that people can actually enjoy suffering and pain, if they know that their suffering is helping others or bringing themselves closer to God. The problem, though, is that certain conditions have to be met in order for that "seeking out suffering" to not be sinful. First, the suffering and pain inflicted upon oneself or that is sought cannot become a source of pride for the person. This is the most difficult to achieve for us sinners, and it is for this reason that in religious orders permission to do this is given very selectively, and only under the close direction of a religious superior.

Other conditions I don't know very well, since I have always had issues with the first one. I'm sure, though, that the intention has to be for the benefit of others or for your own spiritual benefit. i.e. You can't do it to punish yourself, since that's what penance after confession is for.

My point is that it's not necessarily wrong to seek out suffering and pain. There are occasions when it's good. And if someone has reached a level spiritually when the occasion is good, then that person is holy indeed.
[/quote]




It depends on the dispositions of their hearts when they are doing this. Otherwise it would
be useless and unredemptive suffering. One has to be moved by the Holy Spirit to do this.
And it should be done only under obedience.

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307475123' post='2250894']
really? so to offer up suffering for the conversion of souls is bad?

did you miss the part of fides' post where he said that flogging, etc is to be done only under the direction of a spiritual director - and usually that person has progressed in holiness to the point that it wouldn't be a source of pride?
[/quote]



Amen!

[Paladin D]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1307420555' post='2250705']
Pain and suffering come, we shouldn't seek them out. My dad used to say that in the military there was no need to practice being uncomfortable. That would come.
[/quote]

Ain't that the truth!

[Debra Little]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307486934' post='2251019']
beautiful, thank you for sharing.
[/quote]

Thank you and you are welcome.