Should We Try To Die A Violent Death ?

[Guest]

One of the differences I have noticed between Protestantism and Catholicism is the view on suffering. It seems protestants tend to lean more towards living a peacefull and prosperous life. And that there is nothing wrong with it and it is to be desired. Now I'm not gonna say Catholicism doesn't encourage peace and prosperity because I think it does. But it seems to find more of a place and meaning for suffering. Almost as if physical pain is something we should want. Saints have prayed for physical pain right? (Not sure) Should a person desire pain and want it in their life ? Does God want us to experience physical pain ? Is it pleasing to Him ? Should one set out to die a violent death ?

Edited June 7, 2011 by Guest

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1307419503' post='2250703']
One of the differences I have noticed between Protestantism and Catholicism is the view on suffering. It seems protestants tend to lean more towards living a peacefull and prosperous life. And that there is nothing wrong with it and it is to be desired. Now I'm not gonna say Catholicism doesn't encourage this because I think it does. But it seems to find more of a place and meaning for suffering. Almost as if physical pain is something we should want. Saints have prayed for physical pain right? (Not sure) Should a person desire pain and want it in their life ? Does God want us to experience physical pain ? Is it pleasing to Him ? Should one set out to die a violent death ?
[/quote]

Thank you, you said what I've been thinking for some time. You are absolutely right!

Yeah what does just suffering achieve? It seems that some Catholics are actually pleased by the amount that they've suffered. And if they haven't suffered then they must be doing something wrong, right? They can do charitable work without suffering. It seems to me that some of the things that Catholics do like walking on their knees for miles, or beating themselves -- is just plain stupid!

[CatherineM]

Pain and suffering come, we shouldn't seek them out. My dad used to say that in the military there was no need to practice being uncomfortable. That would come.

[AccountDeleted]

Should we try to die a violent death?
Absolutely not.

Should we seek out suffering?
Absolutely not.

Should we flee from pain and suffering if we can?
Absolutely.

Should we avoid pain and suffering by compromising our faith and/our our virtues and morals?
Absolutely not.

Jesus did not run from suffering, but He did not avoid what was necessary for our salvation. He told us that "Blessed are those who are persecuted for my name's sake." - not "Blessed are those who run away from pain to live another day!"

When it can be avoided - by all means, do so. But if it can not be avoided then embrace it as He did, and offer it as He did, for the salvation of souls. He told us that the world would not treat us better than it treated Our Lord, and we should not expect it to.

Sometimes Protestants think that material success indicates that one is pleasing God (my impression) but Jesus told us that "Blessed are the poor."

Anything can be carried to extreme... use common sense.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote]If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; for he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall save it. [/quote]

[quote]There is no need to seek suffering; it is sure to come. We have but to accept it and use it to ennoble our human nature. We may pray that the ‘chalice of suffering may pass from us,’ yet it must be in the spirit of Christ which can add: ‘Not my will but thine be done.’ -- Fr. Martin Harrison[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1307420414' post='2250704']
Thank you, you said what I've been thinking for some time. You are absolutely right!

Yeah what does just suffering achieve? It seems that some Catholics are actually pleased by the amount that they've suffered.
[/quote]

[quote]Being one with Christ is our sanctity, and progressively becoming one with him our happiness on earth, the love of the cross in no way contradicts being a joyful child of God. Helping Christ carry his cross fills one with a strong and pure joy, and those who may and can do so, the builders of God's kingdom, are the most authentic children of God. And so those who have a predilection for the way of the cross by no means deny that Good Friday is past and that the work of salvation has been accomplished. Only those who are saved, only children of grace, can in fact be bearers of Christ's cross. Only in union with the divine Head does human suffering take an expiatory power.

To suffer and to be happy although suffering, to have one's feet on the earth, to walk on the dirty and rough paths of this earth and yet to be enthroned with Christ at the Father's right hand, to laugh and cry with the children of this world and ceaselessly sing the praises of God with the choirs of angels - this is the life of the Christian until the morning of eternity breaks forth. --St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross[/quote]

[MithLuin]

Yes, I agree with what's been said.

It is human nature to want to avoid suffering. Let's face it, it's no fun to be sick or in pain or poor or lonely or what have you. It's much nicer to have a 'happy life' where everything goes well and nobody gets cancer.

But...real life isn't always like that. Suffering happens. Hearts are broken, we go through pain.

Catholic theology isn't about seeking out suffering, but rather, offers an insight into how to deal with it. Suffering is not a curse; it's an opportunity. As unpleasant as it is, we can grow so much in our faith and love for one another through trying times. No one [i]wants[/i] to suffer, but if you [i]must[/i] suffer anyway, isn't it good to know that there is some purpose to it? That God is with you in your suffering? And that you have the opportunity to unite your suffering to Christ's suffering on the cross?

Catholics aren't told to go in search of suffering...but we are told to 'offer it up' when we do suffer.

There is merit in dying a martyr's death, but you don't 'seek out' martyrdom. You seek to live your life for Christ, and somethings that means that a martyr's death will be demanded of you. Likewise, there is merit in drawn-out suffering before death, in that you can unite your suffering to Christ's and atone for some of your own faults or offer it up for the souls in purgatory. But that doesn't mean you have to wish for a painful death. You are in fact invited to pray from the blessing of a happy death, and the patron of that is St. Joseph, since he likely had both Jesus and Mary with him when he died.

[Amppax]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307462292' post='2250809']
Yes, I agree with what's been said.

It is human nature to want to avoid suffering. Let's face it, it's no fun to be sick or in pain or poor or lonely or what have you. It's much nicer to have a 'happy life' where everything goes well and nobody gets cancer.

But...real life isn't always like that. Suffering happens. Hearts are broken, we go through pain.

Catholic theology isn't about seeking out suffering, but rather, offers an insight into how to deal with it. Suffering is not a curse; it's an opportunity. As unpleasant as it is, we can grow so much in our faith and love for one another through trying times. No one [i]wants[/i] to suffer, but if you [i]must[/i] suffer anyway, isn't it good to know that there is some purpose to it? That God is with you in your suffering? And that you have the opportunity to unite your suffering to Christ's suffering on the cross?

Catholics aren't told to go in search of suffering...but we are told to 'offer it up' when we do suffer.

There is merit in dying a martyr's death, but you don't 'seek out' martyrdom. You seek to live your life for Christ, and somethings that means that a martyr's death will be demanded of you. Likewise, there is merit in drawn-out suffering before death, in that you can unite your suffering to Christ's and atone for some of your own faults or offer it up for the souls in purgatory. But that doesn't mean you have to wish for a painful death. You are in fact invited to pray from the blessing of a happy death, and the patron of that is St. Joseph, since he likely had both Jesus and Mary with him when he died.
[/quote]

THIS, +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[arfink]

St. Thomas Moore exemplified the idea of only taking the suffering given to you instead of racing towards martyrdom recklessly by standing up for himself in court. I need to find his quote on that matter... I think he told it to his daughter that he didn't desire martyrdom even though he was sure he'd get it for opposing the king.

[fides' Jack]

Nobody has really addressed one of the questions asked (or maybe implied). I don't know if saints have prayed for physical pain, but certain saints have flogged themselves (in a very holy way).

I don't think it's accurate to say that we should never seek suffering and pain.


The truth is that people can actually enjoy suffering and pain, if they know that their suffering is helping others or bringing themselves closer to God. The problem, though, is that certain conditions have to be met in order for that "seeking out suffering" to not be sinful. First, the suffering and pain inflicted upon oneself or that is sought cannot become a source of pride for the person. This is the most difficult to achieve for us sinners, and it is for this reason that in religious orders permission to do this is given very selectively, and only under the close direction of a religious superior.

Other conditions I don't know very well, since I have always had issues with the first one. I'm sure, though, that the intention has to be for the benefit of others or for your own spiritual benefit. i.e. You can't do it to punish yourself, since that's what penance after confession is for.

My point is that it's not necessarily wrong to seek out suffering and pain. There are occasions when it's good. And if someone has reached a level spiritually when the occasion is good, then that person is holy indeed.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307462292' post='2250809']
But that doesn't mean you have to wish for a painful death. You are in fact invited to pray from the blessing of a happy death, and the patron of that is St. Joseph, since he likely had both Jesus and Mary with him when he died.
[/quote]

The ideas of "pain" and "happiness" are not mutually exclusive. One can be very happy and be in a great deal of pain. In fact, pain itself can bring happiness.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1307470436' post='2250867']
Nobody has really addressed one of the questions asked (or maybe implied). I don't know if saints have prayed for physical pain, but certain saints have flogged themselves (in a very holy way).

I don't think it's accurate to say that we should never seek suffering and pain.


The truth is that people can actually enjoy suffering and pain, if they know that their suffering is helping others or bringing themselves closer to God. The problem, though, is that certain conditions have to be met in order for that "seeking out suffering" to not be sinful. First, the suffering and pain inflicted upon oneself or that is sought cannot become a source of pride for the person. This is the most difficult to achieve for us sinners, and it is for this reason that in religious orders permission to do this is given very selectively, and only under the close direction of a religious superior.

Other conditions I don't know very well, since I have always had issues with the first one. I'm sure, though, that the intention has to be for the benefit of others or for your own spiritual benefit. i.e. You can't do it to punish yourself, since that's what penance after confession is for.

My point is that it's not necessarily wrong to seek out suffering and pain. There are occasions when it's good. And if someone has reached a level spiritually when the occasion is good, then that person is holy indeed.
[/quote]

I think that ALL of the people who flog themselves are missing the point, and that suffering like that is nothing more than a stupid waste of their time -- which could be put to use doing something good!

I know that Christians argue against violence, but in cases where you physically stick up for somebody -- in my experience -- you almost always get hurt. And some people might argue "I didn't get involved because I'm a Christian and I don't believe in violence." But you feel like saying "No you didn't get involved because you were being a coward!"

And going against the crowd and sticking up for what is right is similar -- in my mind. It's almost easier to take a physical risk than to "go against the crowd" or to disagree with peers -- who are pushing you to do something that you shouldn't.

[CatherineM]

I just read that a Christian is killed for the faith worldwide every 30 minutes. It may be something that we will have to deal with in our lifetime.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1307420555' post='2250705']
Pain and suffering come, we shouldn't seek them out. My dad used to say that in the military there was no need to practice being uncomfortable. That would come.
[/quote]

I can't say it better than this.

I was raised in a Protestant denomination, however, that had suffered physical injury and death in the UK within the last 150yrs. In my own time, both before and after I became Catholic, I have had 'missiles' thrown at me whilst witnessing to my faith. We suffer enough for our faith's sake, I believe it is our calling to accept it not self-inflict it.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='southern california guy' timestamp='1307473552' post='2250883']
I think that ALL of the people who flog themselves are missing the point, and that suffering like that is nothing more than a stupid waste of their time -- which could be put to use doing something good!
[/quote]
really? so to offer up suffering for the conversion of souls is bad?

did you miss the part of fides' post where he said that flogging, etc is to be done only under the direction of a spiritual director - and usually that person has progressed in holiness to the point that it wouldn't be a source of pride?