If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make A Rock So Big, That Even He Cannot

[dairygirl4u2c]

i see your point, at least if we are measuring God by logic and reason. but, even if we are measuring God by reason, all the explanations i try to use can have holes poked in them.

 

the only things i see as solutions are that God is not unlimited, but then even that brings up the issue of it being unsettling to say the unlimited doesn't exist, even without regard to it being referenced as God.

[dairygirl4u2c]

unless we assert that immovable objects, such as certain rocks that God would putatively create, and unstoppable forces, such as what God could be, do not, and cannot exist?

Edited July 10, 2014 by dairygirl4u2c

[Dr_Asik]

i see your point, at least if we are measuring God by logic and reason. but, even if we are measuring God by reason, all the explanations i try to use can have holes poked in them.

 

the only things i see as solutions are that God is not unlimited, but then even that brings up the issue of it being unsettling to say the unlimited doesn't exist, even without regard to it being referenced as God.

You don't need any explanations because there's no problem to begin with.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do not see how you say there is no problem to begin with. how else can you begin to answer the questions posed by the paradox? you can't just assert 'it's like calling a circle a square'. how is it calling a circle a square.

 

unless we assert that immovable objects, such as certain rocks that God would putatively create, and unstoppable forces, such as what God could be, do not, and cannot exist?

[Dr_Asik]

"a rock so big that an omnipotent being cannot lift it" is like saying "something that's beyond the power of an omnipotent being". But being omnipotent, by definition, means that nothing is beyond its power. Therefore the expression both implies and negates omnipotence; it both affirms and negates the possibility of the existence of something beyond the power of this being. This is a direct contradiction.

 

So it's exactly like asking if God can create a square circle: it's not a real question because the terms of the question contradict each other.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Dr_Asik

[reyb]

i know folks have mentioned this here in passing, addressed it. but, never a devoted topic to it.

God can do anything, right?
If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big, that even He cannot lift it?
If you say he can make the rock... then are you saying that God cannot lift it?
If you say that he can lift the rock... then are you saying that he can't make the rock so big enough?

There is shrewdness in this kind of questioning. You are the one who make your own interpretation and premises to the subject, and then, you are trying to prove that you are right simply because you cannot escape in your own useless argument.

 

It is an example of a crafty who caught in his own craftiness. Try to answer your own question and you will end up saying ‘There is no God’ if not, ‘It is a mystery’.

 

Trinitarians are usually doing it. After they make their own interpretations about God, Christ and everything about God’s nature. They end up saying, ‘It is a mystery’ without knowing and seeing that ‘It is a lie’.

 

You said, ‘If God is all powerful, can He make a rock so big, that even He cannot lift it?

 

Now, why do you expect me (all of us who are reading your post) in a manner of ‘Yes or No’ without discussing first what is the Omnipotence of God really mean? We must discuss it first because, it seems you are considering too that God can do everything.  I too believe it but not in a manner you are trying to show.

 

Okay. Let me answer you first question using your own interpretation and understanding about God’s nature.

You said, ‘God can do anything, right?’

 

Wrong. Because, God cannot lie and therefore, He cannot do anything.

Edited July 10, 2014 by reyb

[KnightofChrist]

There are various passages from Holy Scripture that teach God holds the universe in the palm of His hands and that it expands like a curtain or tent. There are also various passages that teach that only God knows the name of every star, and that man cannot because God's creation is too vast for man to comprehend. If the universe is truly ever expanding and infinite it is evidence that God is able to hold such a 'object' in His hands without issue.

God transcends our space time, but the op's question assumes that God is limited to and does not transcend our space time. It is like applying two dimensional understanding of shapes to three or four dimensional shapes.

Edited July 11, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[reyb]

He cannot or will not?

 

 

i see your point, at least if we are measuring God by logic and reason. but, even if we are measuring God by reason, all the explanations i try to use can have holes poked in them.

 

the only things i see as solutions are that God is not unlimited, but then even that brings up the issue of it being unsettling to say the unlimited doesn't exist, even without regard to it being referenced as God.

 

 

"a rock so big that an omnipotent being cannot lift it" is like saying "something that's beyond the power of an omnipotent being". But being omnipotent, by definition, means that nothing is beyond its power. Therefore the expression both implies and negates omnipotence; it both affirms and negates the possibility of the existence of something beyond the power of this being. This is a direct contradiction.

 

So it's exactly like asking if God can create a square circle: it's not a real question because the terms of the question contradict each other.

 

 

 

Unfounded understanding about God’s power will certainly lead to erroneous conclusion that God has limits. They thought, if God cannot lie then, to believe that God can do everything must be wrong. Thus, many are saying that God can do lie (in order to justify that God can do everything) but willed not to lie.

 

We truly understand the power of God differently. God’s inability to lie is a proof of his unlimited and unbounded power rather than, a proof of his failure to do everything and anything.

 

Let me explain a little what is this power of God.  

 

God said ‘Let there will be light’ and there was light. God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." And it was So. Therefore, how can God lied if everything He say will come into existence? (And it is unlimited because, everything and all things God said will come to pass).  So, where is his ability to lie if whenever He said ‘be’ and it will be ‘done’?

 

Thus, the proof of God’s unlimited power is because ‘God cannot lie’.  

 

Let us go back to our discussion regarding this ‘heavy rock’. Suppose, God said ‘Let there be a rock which even I have no power to move it’. Do you think, God can moved it?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i actually retract my position again. i admit there's a lot of retracting going on.

 

i go back to my original position. God can either make the immovable force of a rock, or he can act as the unstoppable force as God. but these two concepts cannot occur at the same time. that would be illogical, same as a square being a circle would be.

 

the only limitations are that those two forces cannot occurr, at teh same time, as a matter of logic.

 

if God made a rock that could not be lifted for a week, then for a week he could not lift it. we have to suppose that God knows what he's doing when he makes decisions like that.

 

thus we are able to say that God is as otherwise unlimited but only limited by logic.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i go back to the the quote being my official position.

 

i won't say that it's necessaily impossible that God can't lift the rock that he made to not be able to lift, but i would suppose if God were to abdie by logic, that would be the case.

 

perhaps God can basically contradict himself, and be unlimited beyond logic. and if that means a circle can be a square, so be it.

 

i would much rather say God is unlimited than say he is limited. other than to say as far as us humans could know, he's otherwise unlimited as limited by logic.

 

 

 

Can an Omnipotent God create a rock he cannot lift? it is said that If one answers yes to the question, then God is therefore not omnipotent because he cannot lift the rock, but if one answers no to the question, God is no longer omnipotent because he cannot create the rock.

my position is that he can do one or the other, at different times, but he can't do both at the same time. and, that he can't do both at the same time doesn't disprove God as omnipotent.

the question is basically another way of saying the following...
"can the unlimited limit itself? if not, it is not unlimited. is so, it is not unlimited."

does the fact that we can ask those questions show that the unlimited is possible only in theory, but when examined, is not actually possible? a mere human construct that has been shown to not hold up against scrutiny?

not necessarily. it moreso shows the absurdity of the question. no matter how we approach it, the unlimited is then limited. calling the unlimited, limited, for the above stated reasons, is an absurd notion itself.

the only way to approach it is to say, if the unlimited is truly unlimited, then it cannot limit itself. that would be illogical. we must say that the unlimited cannot limit itself. this is true at the abstract level, but has troubling consequences in application. cause what gives, can he make the rock or can't he? does the inability of the unlimited being unable to limit itself translate into "no God cannot create the rock ie limit himself, he who is unlimited?" or does it translate into 'no he can create the rock cause he is unlimited, but he can't lift it?"

the solution is to say 'the otherwise unlimited force of God that is limited by logic'.

the solution lies in stepping back from the abstract, in the real world. for example, in the real world, a circle cannot at the same time be a square. if the inability for a square to at the same time be a circle shows that the unlimited is not possible, then yes, the unlimited does not exist. but in the real world, the unlimited can be said to exist, if it follows the laws of logic. this all translates into God by replacing "unlimited" with "God". the unlimited ultimately transaltes into God's abilities. so, God in the world of imagation where circles and be squares, God is in no way limited. but in the real world, God is limited by logic. perhaps it is better not to say that God is unlimited, but that God is reality, which includes logic. or at least to recognize that the unlimited can only be so in the real world where logic restricts what it really mean to be unlimited.

so we've examined the unlimited when it comes to the square circle, what about back to the issue of God and the rock?

to answer this, we need to ask another question. what happens when an immovable rock meets the unstoppable force of God?

the issue-- the paradox arises because it rests on two premises"that there exist such things as immovable rocks and unstoppable forces"which cannot both be true at once. If there exists an unstoppable force, it follows logically that there cannot be any such thing as an immovable rock, and vice versa.

so the key then is "at once". to ask if God can create both scenarios at once is a logical impossibility. God cannot do the logically impossible.

if God creates the immovable rock, he cannot be an unstoppable force. and if God acts as the unstoppable force, he cannot create an immovable rock. he must choose which scenario exists at any given time. and, in fact, the fact that he would be able to choose the scenario, highlights the underlying omnipotence of God to begin with.
so, as some have intuitively argued, God can create the rock, but then he can also choose to lift it. but he can't create both scenarios at once. that would be illogical.
so.. yes, in some sense, God as the unlimited has been shown to not exist... he is restricted. but.... he's merely restricted from the world of imagination, due to logic. God cannot be illogical.

so, ultimately... the notion of unlimited that follows logic hasn't been shown to not exist.... it and the following notion of God, has been shown to be possible..... as long as it's consistent, and logical.

Edited July 13, 2014 by dairygirl4u2c

[Jesus_lol]

I thought this post was beaten to death years ago.

 

I am not sure if i am still even remotely interested in anything i was doing back in 2011, much less a rather mundane argument.

 

It is weird to be gone from PM for so long and come back to see the same threads.

 

[reyb]

i actually retract my position again. i admit there's a lot of retracting going on.

 

i go back to my original position. God can either make the immovable force of a rock, or he can act as the unstoppable force as God. but these two concepts cannot occur at the same time. that would be illogical, same as a square being a circle would be.

 

the only limitations are that those two forces cannot occurr, at teh same time, as a matter of logic.

 

if God made a rock that could not be lifted for a week, then for a week he could not lift it. we have to suppose that God knows what he's doing when he makes decisions like that.

 

thus we are able to say that God is as otherwise unlimited but only limited by logic.

Do you really think --- it is illogical to believe that the Word of God stands forever? 

Edited July 14, 2014 by reyb

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'm not sure what that means.

 

i suspect you are being too harsh on me. this is a known or known as a paradox. i'm just tryin to figure it out. and i don't see you doin much better at explaining anything.

 

to be sure, i also did acknowledge that if God wanted to go past the rules of logic, i wouldn't put it past him. i'm just tryin my best to understand how this would work in a world of logic.

[Credo in Deum]

I thought this post was beaten to death years ago.

 

I am not sure if i am still even remotely interested in anything i was doing back in 2011, much less a rather mundane argument.

 

It is weird to be gone from PM for so long and come back to see the same threads.

 

We're all about tradition here on PM.  It's a Catholic thing. ;)

[dairygirl4u2c]

i had also at one point argued, and i might go back to arguing. that it is like dropping a ball or not. i can say i won't drop a ball, and if i am consistent as i would imagine God is, then i won't drop the ball. if he creates the rock, whether or not he can lift it, he probably won't lift it for as long as he says he won't. not that he couldn't, but that it would be inconsistent, and going beyond logic if he does?