*sigh* Do You Get Frustrated By Your Priest Too?

[AccountDeleted]

I went to Mass this morning thinking that it was our weekend for a lay led liturgy (I live in a very small country town and we only get a priest twice a month). I debated whether to go to the next town over but it is quite a distance and I can't really afford the petrol, so I thought I would support our little community by attending the Communion Service and just being grateful I had that much.

So, it was to my delight that I got to the church to see the priest getting out of his car. This Sunday was the real Mass one! yayyy. I was so happy that I had decided to come to this one after all. Until I went inside the church.

Our priest is a very sweet man, very kind and and genuine person. From conversations with him after Mass, I had come to realize that he was a bit more liberal than I am (not a rare thing here in Australia), but this morning his attitude was actually very upsetting to me. He lounged around before Mass, chatting with the few parishioners that were there (only ten this morning, even though it was the Ascension! but then we don't often get more than 25 at the best of times). He usually keeps his conversation very general but this morning he must have wanted to vent because he went on at length criticising 'those men at the Vatican' and the concept of 'creeping infallibility' that makes everyone think that if the Pope says something enough times, he is infalliable about it. He particularly complained about the changes in the missal - he thinks the next step will be returning to the Latin - and a lady asked him if he still remembered it, to which he said "I still know 'Dominus vobiscum' " so I replied "Et cum spirituo tuo." and he smiled but this reminded him that now we have to say "And with your spirit." instead of "And also with you." Then he seemed to get really upset and said that 'they' are even talking about making the priests celebrate Mass with their backs to the people again!!

Look, I understand that the changes are hard for some priests, for whatever reason, but shouldn't they be complaining to their bishops and each other and not to the faithful before Mass? One of the parishioners even got so upset as to tell him that if he 'decided to walk', we would all go with him (there has been a recent scandal in Oz where a parish threatened to do this if their priest was sacked, which he was - we even had a Bishop sacked recently). This lady today said, 'We'll be like St Mary's!" (meaning this other parish). I was shocked and wanted to speak out, "Well, don't count me in on that!" but I kept my mouth closed because the priest just said, "Well, it won't come to that."

But I personally was scandalised that the priest should bring up such controversial and divisive topics before Mass - and also that he should criticize those who are in effect, his bosses, in front of others. IMO all it served to do was to scandalise and cause division and I can't see what possible good could have come from his behaviour. I wanted to walk out but of course, I couldn't because of Mass, and there being no other priests around the area (our priest serves the next two towns as well).

I actually like this priest as a person - he is good hearted and generous and means well, but I found this so distressing that it caused me great effort to focus again on the sacrifice of the Mass and prepare myself for Communion. Then, of course, he is a priest who likes to ad lib little words here and there in the Mass (not during the Consecration, thank the Lord) -- such things as saying during the Creed that Jesus came down from heaven and became 'HUMAN' (is there any doubt that he became a MAN?) - and other little changes of his own devising (Fr Z's blog talks about ad libbing priests - a good argument for returning to the Latin!) - anyway it takes a lot of focus for me not to pay attention to all the little illicit things he does or says and to remind myself I am there for the Consecration and Communion and for Jesus alone. But my mind was very stirred up this morning and it affected me deeply.

Anyway, I just wish that all priests who disagree with the Vatican would keep their opinions to themselves or at least keep them within their own colleagues and superiors and not try to agitate the faithful. It is hard enough for the faithful to try to live as good Catholics today without their own pastors stirring them up! And couldn't the Holy Father do with a little more support in this already anti-Catholic and hostile world? He is the chief Shepherd and he deserves prayers and support from everyone, not petty criticisms and derogatory comments, especially from the clergy. Sorry for the rant, but this was a special feast day today, and the priest just really tainted it for me, especially when I heard that parishioner basically say she would defy the Vatican for her parish priest! *shudder*

I think this might be a good example of why the 'personality cult' of the priest is so dangerous - one straying priest can lead so many others astray as well. I am not saying my priest is straying or that he means any harm, but that's the worst danger of all - a well meaning person who goes against the authority - kind of like Luther?

I really do hope the Holy Father gets us back to ad orientem and even Latin (just to stop the ad libbing!) as soon as he humanly can.... then maybe the priests will stop trying to make us like them so much and just do their job.... I like this priest, I just don't trust him any more.

am I wrong?

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1307286255' post='2250153']
I like this priest, I just don't trust him any more.

am I wrong?
[/quote]


I guess I don't see what happened that would make you not trust him "anymore." He ad libs parts of the Mass, is on the liberal side ... but you knew that all before.

One of the parishioners suggested mutiny against the bishop and your priest shut that idea down, saying it won't come to that.

Was it upsetting that he complained? If this priest had been complaining about something else, and you agreed with his complaint, would it have upset you?

I agree with you that in general priests should keep certain ideas, opinions, & criticisms "in house" so to speak ... on the other hand, many priests live and work alone, and they don't necessarily have clerical friends to "vent" on ... esp. if they are serving parishes in very out of the way places, like yours apparently is. In the end they are people, and sometimes in the very human desire to be heard, they say things that are imprudent or not becoming ...

I have overheard similar complaining from more conservative clergy, expressing frustration about a rule requiring standing after communion or communion in the hand during epidemics. I think if they'd been thinking about it, they wouldn't have said anything - but as worked up as they were, it came out.

[Ash Wednesday]

The priest at the parish closest to us called Benedict "autocratic" in front of our entire congregation and throws a fit when anyone wants to take communion on the tongue. He is very liberal and seems to harbor a great dislike for traditionalism. I think when he openly called John Paul II a "fascist" and made me feel like I was being "difficult" for not wanting to take communion in the hand and all but forced me to do so, I decided we'd had enough and have elected to attend elsewhere. He is probably a better Christian than I am, but I really should not feel like I am being scolded every time I go to mass for not wanting the liberal watered-down happy clappy felt banner garbage that I was raised on and most of my baptized Catholic classmates have long since fallen away from.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[bernadette d]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1307286255' post='2250153']
I went to Mass this morning thinking that it was our weekend for a lay led liturgy (I live in a very small country town and we only get a priest twice a month). I debated whether to go to the next town over but it is quite a distance and I can't really afford the petrol, so I thought I would support our little community by attending the Communion Service and just being grateful I had that much.

So, it was to my delight that I got to the church to see the priest getting out of his car. This Sunday was the real Mass one! yayyy. I was so happy that I had decided to come to this one after all. Until I went inside the church.

Our priest is a very sweet man, very kind and and genuine person. From conversations with him after Mass, I had come to realize that he was a bit more liberal than I am (not a rare thing here in Australia), but this morning his attitude was actually very upsetting to me. He lounged around before Mass, chatting with the few parishioners that were there (only ten this morning, even though it was the Ascension! but then we don't often get more than 25 at the best of times). He usually keeps his conversation very general but this morning he must have wanted to vent because he went on at length criticising 'those men at the Vatican' and the concept of 'creeping infallibility' that makes everyone think that if the Pope says something enough times, he is infalliable about it. He particularly complained about the changes in the missal - he thinks the next step will be returning to the Latin - and a lady asked him if he still remembered it, to which he said "I still know 'Dominus vobiscum' " so I replied "Et cum spirituo tuo." and he smiled but this reminded him that now we have to say "And with your spirit." instead of "And also with you." Then he seemed to get really upset and said that 'they' are even talking about making the priests celebrate Mass with their backs to the people again!!

Look, I understand that the changes are hard for some priests, for whatever reason, but shouldn't they be complaining to their bishops and each other and not to the faithful before Mass? One of the parishioners even got so upset as to tell him that if he 'decided to walk', we would all go with him (there has been a recent scandal in Oz where a parish threatened to do this if their priest was sacked, which he was - we even had a Bishop sacked recently). This lady today said, 'We'll be like St Mary's!" (meaning this other parish). I was shocked and wanted to speak out, "Well, don't count me in on that!" but I kept my mouth closed because the priest just said, "Well, it won't come to that."

But I personally was scandalised that the priest should bring up such controversial and divisive topics before Mass - and also that he should criticize those who are in effect, his bosses, in front of others. IMO all it served to do was to scandalise and cause division and I can't see what possible good could have come from his behaviour. I wanted to walk out but of course, I couldn't because of Mass, and there being no other priests around the area (our priest serves the next two towns as well).

I actually like this priest as a person - he is good hearted and generous and means well, but I found this so distressing that it caused me great effort to focus again on the sacrifice of the Mass and prepare myself for Communion. Then, of course, he is a priest who likes to ad lib little words here and there in the Mass (not during the Consecration, thank the Lord) -- such things as saying during the Creed that Jesus came down from heaven and became 'HUMAN' (is there any doubt that he became a MAN?) - and other little changes of his own devising (Fr Z's blog talks about ad libbing priests - a good argument for returning to the Latin!) - anyway it takes a lot of focus for me not to pay attention to all the little illicit things he does or says and to remind myself I am there for the Consecration and Communion and for Jesus alone. But my mind was very stirred up this morning and it affected me deeply.

Anyway, I just wish that all priests who disagree with the Vatican would keep their opinions to themselves or at least keep them within their own colleagues and superiors and not try to agitate the faithful. It is hard enough for the faithful to try to live as good Catholics today without their own pastors stirring them up! And couldn't the Holy Father do with a little more support in this already anti-Catholic and hostile world? He is the chief Shepherd and he deserves prayers and support from everyone, not petty criticisms and derogatory comments, especially from the clergy. Sorry for the rant, but this was a special feast day today, and the priest just really tainted it for me, especially when I heard that parishioner basically say she would defy the Vatican for her parish priest! *shudder*

I think this might be a good example of why the 'personality cult' of the priest is so dangerous - one straying priest can lead so many others astray as well. I am not saying my priest is straying or that he means any harm, but that's the worst danger of all - a well meaning person who goes against the authority - kind of like Luther?

I really do hope the Holy Father gets us back to ad orientem and even Latin (just to stop the ad libbing!) as soon as he humanly can.... then maybe the priests will stop trying to make us like them so much and just do their job.... I like this priest, I just don't trust him any more.

am I wrong?
[/quote]

[bernadette d]

You are right in my opinion, I think the harm these Priests cause can be inestimable

[faithcecelia]

It always saddens me when I hear priests (or a bishop in one case) complaining about changes the Church is instigating, but I cannot say that, for the information given, this case is any worse than that of so many priests when the changes all came in after V2 - this priest isn't keen on reverting to celebrating Mass with his back to the congregation, many objected to having to change from this to face the congregation. It saddens me when I hear parishioners criticising their priests, who are God's representatives, and am horrified to hear about them getting together to get rid of priests they don't like.

I personally feel that change is good, that is shakes and wakes people up and makes them take notice. There are seemingly 'traditional' parishes where the teaching is dubious, there are 'modern' parishes where the teaching is very catholic. The Church is big enough and encompassing enough that these styles can all easily be contained withing it without half the rows there are, but I am reassured by the Scriptures, knowing that our disagreements and different views on how things should be done have existed from day one.

Personally, I love modern, lively worship. I love charismatic worship. I also love traditional hymns and Latin benediction. I prefer Mass in English, but at present am happier worshiping in the environment that means having Mass in Latin. I have not yet been to a Tridentine Mass but hope to soon and have no problem with the 2 running side by side. I look forward to the new texts because I like a change, I believe they are more authentic, and mainly because its what the Church says we must use, so I look forward to complying (tho I suspect my parish may try to avoid it as long as possible). My role on earth is to worship God, to praise and glorify Him and to recieve His body and blood in me, which in turn will inspire me to further worship. To me, the finer details are neither here nor there.

[Zero]

Fr.Z and other blogging clergy always rant about these liberal Catholic priests, but this is the first I've actually heard of one existing. None of them seem to do any blogging, and as far as I know there aren't any near the parish where I live. I must confess I thought them a bit of a myth. Oh sadness.

[ThePenciledOne]

For the record, before we move onto talking about liberal Priests and what not. Let's remember that they accepted God's call for their lives and these men are holy no matter their opinions.

Given if they have misgivings, ok sure we're fallen humans, but I think Priests more than anyone else need our support, on the grounds of them coming under not only spiritual attack, but attack from the world as well.

Just sayin'.

[bernadette d]

All Priests need and should be able to rely on our prayers and support, what is at point here is the harm done by speaking out against the authority of the Church. It is not simply a matter of a different form of worship. i.e. hymns etc.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1307296878' post='2250187']
For the record, before we move onto talking about liberal Priests and what not. Let's remember that they accepted God's call for their lives and these men are holy no matter their opinions.

Given if they have misgivings, ok sure we're fallen humans, but I think Priests more than anyone else need our support, on the grounds of them coming under not only spiritual attack, but attack from the world as well.

Just sayin'.
[/quote]
amen. i think it would definitely be a spiritual work of mercy to say a rosary (a full one) for this priest to let go of his anger. entrust him to our Mother Mary.

[cappie]

St Francis on the priesthood

Listen, my brothers: If the Blessed Virgin is so honored, as it is right, since she carried Him in her most holy womb; if the blessed Baptist trembled and did not dare to touch the holy head of God; if the tomb in which He lay for some time is so venerated, how holy, just, and worthy must be the person who touches Him with his hands, receives Him in his heart and mouth, and offers Him to others to be received. This is He Who is now not about to die, but Who is eternally victorious and glorified, upon Whom the angels desire to gaze (1 Pet 1:12).

Look at your dignity, you brothers (who are) priests, and be holy since He is holy (cf. Lev 19:2). And as the Lord God has honored you above all other persons because of this ministry, so you should love, reverence, and honor Him above all others. It is a great misery and a miserable weakness that when you have Him present with you in this way, you concern yourselves with anything else in this entire world.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Zero' timestamp='1307295996' post='2250186']
Fr.Z and other blogging clergy always rant about these liberal Catholic priests, but this is the first I've actually heard of one existing. None of them seem to do any blogging, and as far as I know there aren't any near the parish where I live. I must confess I thought them a bit of a myth. Oh sadness.
[/quote]
I can show you a few.
[img]http://protectthepope.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/hans-kung.jpg[/img]
[img]http://library2.binghamton.edu/news/international/files/2011/04/ernesto_cardenal.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.krs.stjohnsem.edu/Karl%20Rahner.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.scncucc.org/voices/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/LeonardoBoff.jpg[/img]

Unfortunately all priests. Notice something in common?


Bonus picture: Here's Ernesto Cardenal getting scolded by Bl. John Paul II.
[img]http://www.regnumnovum.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Ernesto-Cardenal.jpg[/img]
According to an article I read, it's one of the few times some of those who worked for the Holy Father saw him truly angry at somebody. Ernesto knelt down expecting a blessing and some encouragement, and instead the Holy Father just tore a strip off him.

[Lilllabettt]

evil unorthodox priest/ future pope
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Lilllabettt/RATZINGERINTIE.jpg[/img]


turns out traditional garb for teaching priests in Germany is black suit and tie.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Lilllabettt

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1307314631' post='2250263']
evil unorthodox priest/ future pope
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Lilllabettt/RATZINGERINTIE.jpg[/img]


turns out traditional garb for teaching priests in Germany is black suit and tie.
[/quote]
I did not know that.
However, Cardenal and Boff are not German.

[AccountDeleted]

I knew this thread would have mixed opinions when I first posted and wondered even if I should put it into the debate table, but wasn't sure.

I agree with the fact that priests need our prayers and support, of course, and I do really like this priest as a person. I specifically kept him anonymous because I wanted to separate his role as a priest from who he is as a person. I think perhaps I overreacted at the time - but I still think that it is inappropriate behaviour to try to involve the parishioners in his discontent with authority. If it were a worldly situation and your boss came to you to criticise the company you work for and the executives, it would put a strain on you because you would feel loyalty to your immediate superior but also know that if that person chooses to leave the company, you might not want to because the things that bother them don't bother you, or you even if they do, you still think it is the best company you have worked for and don't want to leave.

I am not saying this priest wanted people to leave, but by his words, he was basically asking for support in his opinions - not debate. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done it while standing as a priest in the front of the church before Mass - he would have invited us over to the rectory for a cup of tea and said he wanted to discuss the future directions of the parish and then explained his points of view. It just seemed a truly inappropriate time and place.

This guy is not evil, he is not even a bad Catholic - quite the contrary, he is very Christ-like, so this makes it even harder. I started to wonder myself if the Church is too hung up on rules and regulations that Jesus didn't seem to care about in the Jewish faith.... and while this is okay to consider, perhaps before Mass isn't the best time for such wonderings and doubts, hmmm?

Anyway, I did what he did, which was to vent my frustration... but I didn't do it in front of people who would be drawn into a feeling of conflicting loyalties and I did it anonymously. Remember please that Australia has just had two scandals involving priests (one a Bishop) who were in opposition to the Vatican. Which reminds me that my priest also said that the Vatican had 'got it wrong' when they sacked the Bishop because he was only saying what they all feel, that there aren't enough priests here in Australia and therefore celibacy and married priests - and maybe even women priests - should be revisited. He didn't come outright and say we should have them, but that we need to discuss it.... I had forgotten that part of the conversation.

I am not saying we can't disagree with authority or even with priests (although we must show them all respect for their office) but that there are ways and times and places to do this. Yes, he is human,but responsibility comes with the position, just as it does in worldly positions of authority, and one's behaviour must reflect this. A simple lapse of judgment? Perhaps, but not, I hope, a recurring one. I'm over the feelings today but my opinion hasn't changed - he was wrong to speak as he did when he and where he did. There are other ways for him to address his dissatisfaction about Church directions without making it public - isn't that part of trying not to scandalise the faithful?

For those who think that we should never disagree with our priests... that kind of thinking leads to cover ups when they misbehave. We don't want to go back to that again, please. All respect but they must be held accountable.


And yes, prayers for them all.

Edited June 6, 2011 by nunsense