The Objective Morality Debate

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307766439' post='2252285']
[url="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3105699.html"]http://www.guttmache...ls/3105699.html[/url]
[/quote]

It's an interesting study, but not very comprehensive
[quote]The reported pregnancies could have resulted from inherent limitations of the method itself or from incorrect or inconsistent use. [/quote]
[quote]Levels of contraceptive failure vary widely by method, as well as by personal and background characteristics. Income's strong influence on contraceptive failure suggests that access barriers and the general disadvantage associated with poverty seriously impede effective contraceptive practice in the United States[/quote]
Also bear in mind that a condom and sperm for that matter do not understand the income of the practitioners. So it comes down to incorrect or inconsistent use. I'd like to know the stats of correct use. If people were educated then correct use would increase and hence failure rates would likely decrease.

Edited June 11, 2011 by stevil

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307766765' post='2252286']
Interestingly, regardles of the position the Catholic church has and has taught for hundreds of years, the vast majority of Catholics are still having sex outside of marriage.
e.g
[url="http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demographics/map_demographics.htm"]U.S. Demographics[/url], 25% of Americans are Catholic
[url="http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20061220/premarital-sex-the-norm-in-america"]Premarital sex the norm in America[/url] by the age of 44, 95% of Americans have had sex outside of marriage.
If the 5% that weren't having sex outside marriage were all Catholic, then that still leaves 20% of Americans (who are also Catholic) having sex outside of marriage. 20% from 25% = 80% of Catholics having sex outside of marriage. And that's giving a very generous assumption that the 5% not having sex outside marriage are all Catholic.

I feel continuing with the position of abstinance as opposed to sex education is denying the reality of human behaviour.
[/quote]

so because catholics in america don't follow church teaching that makes the church teaching wrong? well since most students intellegence is decreasing it means most teachers are not doing their jobs. so by your logic, teachers teaching are wrong.

for hundreads of years it was not human behavior to be as sexually promiscuous as people are today, so your arguement fails. for hundreads of years people didn't have sex with everyone under the sun like they do today. so human behavior is not to go around having sex with everyone like you imply.

[stevil]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307769962' post='2252295']
so because catholics in america don't follow church teaching that makes the church teaching wrong?
[/quote]
I'm yet to see evidence that teaching people to abstain from having sex is effective.
i know that sex education is effective in making people aware of the dangers, and the statistics associated with various sex related activities and contraceptives.
I am also aware that an educated person is more likely to use contraceptives more effectively than if they weren't educated.



[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307769962' post='2252295']
well since most students intellegence is decreasing it means most teachers are not doing their jobs. so by your logic, teachers teaching are wrong.
[/quote]
Not my logic, but nice try.
I am fine with the Catholic church teaching people to abstain from sex. I am not fine with the Catholic Church influencing government to remove sex education from schools.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307769962' post='2252295']
for hundreads of years it was not human behavior to be as sexually promiscuous as people are today, so your arguement fails. for hundreads of years people didn't have sex with everyone under the sun like they do today. so human behavior is not to go around having sex with everyone like you imply.
[/quote]
Well, if the issue is only with today's times then possibly the church could consider reviewing their teachings and update for today's times.

[kujo]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1307751837' post='2252231']
But mortal sins don't get Heaven, even if they are "less bad" than other mortal sins.
[/quote]

I guess that's true.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307765104' post='2252275']
but your thinking is leading you away from the church and onto the path that leads away from the narrow gate. the church states that condom use is a grave sin. promoting condoms would also be a grave sin. you are in support and promotion of something that is a grave sin. for your own soul, i think you should follow the church on this teaching and then read the church documents so you can clarify why you are wrong and the church is right. for your own sake man.
[/quote]

I have read the Church teaching and documents on the matter. I, personally, agree with them, for the most part; however, I just think it's a losing battle.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307767363' post='2252289']
So it comes down to incorrect or inconsistent use. I'd like to know the stats of correct use. If people were educated then correct use would increase and hence failure rates would likely decrease.
[/quote]

Exactly.

Though I still don't understand how people don't know how to use a condom. I mean, how is that not the most intuitive thing in the world?


[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307769962' post='2252295']
for hundreads of years it was not human behavior to be as sexually promiscuous as people are today, so your arguement fails. for hundreads of years people didn't have sex with everyone under the sun like they do today. so human behavior is not to go around having sex with everyone like you imply.
[/quote]

[i]Really[/i]? I mean, have you read a book on the lascivious behavior of the Romans? The Greeks? The British/French/Spanish/Portuguese?

[stevil]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1307730637' post='2252088']
Homosexuality is, at its core, perverted. It's taking something that was obviously intended for a purpose, and distorting it to something else - hence perversion.

So, what I want to go on record as believing, is that there is something wrong with homosexuals. I'm sure it's a little different for each one, but some sort of defect exists in every single one.

But don't take that the wrong way. We all have defects. I have some very serious ones. I pity homosexuals, because I can see that must be a very hard cross to bear. Sure, it's a defect, but it's not the worst one. Better to be inclined to sin in the direction of homosexuality than to be inclined not to believe in God. Atheists (of all sorts) are opposing God. Homosexuals (and liars and gossipers and adulterers) are merely struggling to be faithful to Him.
[/quote]
If this is the love of Christianity that is being taught to hundreds of millions of Christians across the world then I can see why there are so many anti-theists trying to stop religion.

It's no wonder that all the homosexuals that I have gotten to know are atheists, I haven't met one that is a Christian. I think of them as the foresaken. They have been judged, villified, persecuted, castracised and dehumanised by the teachings of Christianity.
I find this grotesque and horrid,

Christains, try showing some compassion, tolerance and love instead.

[stevil]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307785729' post='2252307']
IThough I still don't understand how people don't know how to use a condom. I mean, how is that not the most intuitive thing in the world?
[/quote]
Some people don't use the right lubricant, evidently the wrong stuff can compromise the condoms.
But without sex ed, alot of people have funny ideas. Some people think you can't get pregnant the first time, or while standing up.
I heard an African official on a TV documentary saying that you can't get AIDS if you have a shower straight after sex.

People need to be educated, there is no benefit from remaining ignorant.

Edited June 11, 2011 by stevil

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307767363' post='2252289']
It's an interesting study, but not very comprehensive


Also bear in mind that a condom and sperm for that matter do not understand the income of the practitioners. So it comes down to incorrect or inconsistent use. I'd like to know the stats of correct use. If people were educated then correct use would increase and hence failure rates would likely decrease.
[/quote]

The Church is also opposed to sex education, which is directly responsible for increasing the odds.

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307779394' post='2252304']
I'm yet to see evidence that teaching people to abstain from having sex is effective.
i know that sex education is effective in making people aware of the dangers, and the statistics associated with various sex related activities and contraceptives.
I am also aware that an educated person is more likely to use contraceptives more effectively than if they weren't educated.




Not my logic, but nice try.
I am fine with the Catholic church teaching people to abstain from sex. I am not fine with the Catholic Church influencing government to remove sex education from schools.


Well, if the issue is only with today's times then possibly the church could consider reviewing their teachings and update for today's times.
[/quote]


except sex education is not effective. look how many people have HIV or an STD. look how many abortions are performed a year or how many unwanted children are born a year. there is no logical way to say sex education is effective. if it were, if condoms and birth control were working so great this generation would not have so many problems releated to sex. do you honestly think sex education works? if so why the massive numbers of stds, hiv, abortions, unwanted pregnancies?

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307785729' post='2252307']


I have read the Church teaching and documents on the matter. I, personally, agree with them, for the most part; however, I just think it's a losing battle.



[i]Really[/i]? I mean, have you read a book on the lascivious behavior of the Romans? The Greeks? The British/French/Spanish/Portuguese?
[/quote]


no matter if its a losing battle or not, you continue to stand up and fight for what is right. trying to fight terrorism is a losing battle, although if you were president would you tell the american people its a losing battle so we should just stop fighting terrorism? if its a losing battle or not, that does not chnage the morality of something. if you stand opposed to morality on these issues then you stand against God. that is not something that we should ever do. if you think its s lolsing battle that's one thing. although to come out in support of something immoral is another thing. my advice, for your own soul, stand in accordance with church teaching and don't support immoral things. God's law is always right.

compare all those other eras to today. look at the stagering numbers of people with hiv and stds. look at the number of abortions and unwanted pregnancies. look at how much society promotes sex in everything including most children's tv shows. sex is more rampant today than ever. everything is sexualized.

[havok579257]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307786957' post='2252309']
If this is the love of Christianity that is being taught to hundreds of millions of Christians across the world then I can see why there are so many anti-theists trying to stop religion.

It's no wonder that all the homosexuals that I have gotten to know are atheists, I haven't met one that is a Christian. I think of them as the foresaken. They have been judged, villified, persecuted, castracised and dehumanised by the teachings of Christianity.
I find this grotesque and horrid,

Christains, try showing some compassion, tolerance and love instead.
[/quote]


the catholic church shows more compassion, tolerance and love than athiests ever could. you have children right? is it loving to correct them when they are in error? when your child does something against your rules, do you correct them? its no different than what the catholic church does. we try to correct "BEHAVIOR" that is wrong. being attracted to the same sex is not a sin. so being homosexual is not a sin. homosexual acts are a sin. having sex with the same sex person i a sin. the catholic church tries compassionatly to teach people why homosexual acts are wrong. they catholic church does not do this because we hate homosexual men and women. the catholic church does this because they LOVE all people and want all people to get the eternal reward in heaven. last i checked, trying to help someone get the ultimate reward is not a bad thing.

[havok579257]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307792343' post='2252314']
The Church is also opposed to sex education, which is directly responsible for increasing the odds.
[/quote]


actually i would say sex education directly increases the odds of hiv,stds, abortions and unwanted pregnancies. look at the statistics for this generation where so called sex education is more than its ever been. now how can you tell me sex education is working?

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307802963' post='2252350']
actually i would say sex education directly increases the odds of hiv,stds, abortions and unwanted pregnancies. look at the statistics for this generation where so called sex education is more than its ever been. now how can you tell me sex education is working?
[/quote]

You seem to lack an understanding of the difference between causation and correlation. To say that increased knowledge about various forms of birth control and how to use them CAUSES "STDs, HIV/AIDS and unwanted pregnancies" is to say that merely possessing that knowledge means you will absolutely experience one or all of those things. Logically, that cannot be true; however, if you said that possessing that knowledge is [i]correlated[/i] with those things-- in that it made a person more likely to have sex, which therefore exposes them to the risk of those things-- it would make more sense. It would also free you from the responsibility of categorically proving your outlandish claim that knowledge = STDs.

But since you've made your argument that way, the burden is now on you to empirically prove your assertions. Show me how sex education--not "society" or other interacting factors which might contribute to your dependent variable-- is the unitary cause of the things you stated before.

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307813554' post='2252380']
You seem to lack an understanding of the difference between causation and correlation. To say that increased knowledge about various forms of birth control and how to use them CAUSES "STDs, HIV/AIDS and unwanted pregnancies" is to say that merely possessing that knowledge means you will absolutely experience one or all of those things. Logically, that cannot be true; however, if you said that possessing that knowledge is [i]correlated[/i] with those things-- in that it made a person more likely to have sex, which therefore exposes them to the risk of those things-- it would make more sense. It would also free you from the responsibility of categorically proving your outlandish claim that knowledge = STDs.

But since you've made your argument that way, the burden is now on you to empirically prove your assertions. Show me how sex education--not "society" or other interacting factors which might contribute to your dependent variable-- is the unitary cause of the things you stated before.
[/quote]


sex education teaches you that having sex is no big deal. that is a normal function and waiting for marriage to have sex is not the norm. the norm is having sex because sex feels good. sex with anyone as long as they are consenting. so have as much sex as you want because if you use a condom or birth control you'll never get pregnant or get hiv or an std.

people then go out because in sex ed they were taught that sex before marriage is something that is good and having sex is no different then drinking a soda. its all about enjoyment. so they go out and have sex and then get hiv,std's,unwanted pregnancies which lead to abortions because condoms and birth control are not even close to 99% effective. although far be it from the billionaires who run these companies to tell people.

where as a sex education class explaining the consequences of sex before marriage, why waiting till marriage is better and why having sex with multiple partners has an effect on your future relationships. although that would involve work and we know from society, people are more interested in taking the easy choice out than making the right choice. the right choice is rarely ever the easy one. since its usually the harder choice, most people end up making the wrong choice because its the easy choice.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1307817970' post='2252393']
sex education teaches you that having sex is no big deal. that is a normal function and waiting for marriage to have sex is not the norm. the norm is having sex because sex feels good. sex with anyone as long as they are consenting. so have as much sex as you want because if you use a condom or birth control you'll never get pregnant or get hiv or an std.

people then go out because in sex ed they were taught that sex before marriage is something that is good and having sex is no different then drinking a soda. its all about enjoyment. so they go out and have sex and then get hiv,std's,unwanted pregnancies which lead to abortions because condoms and birth control are not even close to 99% effective. although far be it from the billionaires who run these companies to tell people.

where as a sex education class explaining the consequences of sex before marriage, why waiting till marriage is better and why having sex with multiple partners has an effect on your future relationships. although that would involve work and we know from society, people are more interested in taking the easy choice out than making the right choice. the right choice is rarely ever the easy one. since its usually the harder choice, most people end up making the wrong choice because its the easy choice.
[/quote]

Ok. Sounds like you've got a firmer grasp on correlation.

Now type me a post--with numbers...from a reputable study-- that proves that sex education is the CAUSE: meaning that it is the only independent variable that exercises any affect on the dependent variable, STDs/HIV/prenancy.

[kujo]

I won't bother to refute the claims you made within that post because it would involve picking through it with a finer comb than I possess. Suffice to say that a sex education class that taught that sex is no different than drinking a soda would not be one worth teaching; however, offering one that educated the students on the moral and literal consequences of the actions--ie. all of the bad things you mentioned-- and how best to avoid them--abstinence first; contraceptives second-- would be a lot better than simply saying "don't do it."

Again, it would always be preferable for everyone to wait for marriage; however, abstinence is NOT 100% effective. Beyond it's obviously limited mass-appeal, it offers no protection against rape. Say you caught an STD from such a heinous act; sure, wearing a condom wouldn't have been an option in THAT moment. But somewhere along the line, someone had unprotected sex with someone else, who caught the STD and passed it on and on and on until it reached you. At some point--whether through ignorance or indifference-- someone chose NOT to protect themselves from disease. And while it might be nice to hope for a world where the best answer--again, [b]I believe that abstinence is the ideal answer here (I can't stress that enough)[/b]-- is taken by all, the real world beckons us to reality. And the reality is that it's better to have an educated population than an uneducated one.

**Edited to organize paragraphs better.

Edited June 11, 2011 by kujo