xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307506009' post='2251130'] You've told me you do believe in absolute truth and objective morality though. Don't forget that. [/quote] I do think that there is some absolute truth out there (though don't always agree with those who say they know it) but I was refering to science, which doesn't claim to know objective truth, which is why I respect it. It's honest in its approach, IMO. As for objective morality, I said that in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307510786' post='2251169'] I do think that there is some absolute truth out there (though don't always agree with those who say they know it) but I was refering to science, which doesn't claim to know objective truth, which is why I respect it. It's honest in its approach, IMO. As for objective morality, I said that in some cases. [/quote] Objective Truth and Objective Morality go hand in hand. You made an absolute statement of truth about a moral belief not only science. I'm sure you believe in a lot more in Objective Truth and Objective Morality than you believe you do. Those some cases, would grow and grow, till you at least got close to having the same or similar beliefs about Objective Truth and Objective Morality that the Church believes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307511182' post='2251171'] Objective Truth and Objective Morality go hand in hand. You made an absolute statement of truth about a moral belief not only science. I'm sure you believe in a lot more in Objective Truth and Objective Morality than you believe you do. Those some cases, would grow and grow, till you at least got close to having the same or similar beliefs about Objective Truth and Objective Morality that the Church believes. [/quote] Based on some of the things that Catholics say, there are similarities between my morality and yours, at least in the premises. I just sometimes don't agree with some particulars or the means to achieve the best outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1307471319' post='2250872'] Yes, Atheists the world over tend to agree on those things. This, however can imply multiple things: one implication is that they are looking at something objectively, another is that they have a selfish interest in this, or a misguided sense of compassion. [/quote] I would disagree that they are looking at it objectively if you mean "absolute", I would agree that they are looking at it objectively if you mean from a non selfish POV. Most Atheists are not gay but most Atheists recognise that gay people are just people and that as individuals we have no right to judge and condem other people and their love for each other as long as their love is mutual and consentual and they are deemed able to make appropriate decisions for themselves (e.g. not little children or an intellictually impared person being taken advantage of) With regards to sex education and safe sex practices, we tend to recognise that sex is a healthy natural expression of love and lust. It is a part of life and without it our species would discontinue. We recognise that the vast majority of people participate in sex regardless of being taught to abstain. Sex education and safe sex practices reduce the risk of tranmitting disease and unwanted pregnancies. I very much doubt we have this stance simply because we really want to have sex and would feel uncomfortable thinking that it is sinful. The reasons are unclear and are most likely specific to each individual, regardless that the outcome is often the same, the path may be quite different and often is. Just because someone's outcome might be different from the majority, this does not mean that they are wrong. All this confussion, different ways to think, different paths, different outcomes lead me to think that there is no absolute objective morality, that there is no way for humans to know absolutely what is right and what is wrong. If you believe in god and hence believe that god knows what is right and wrong and hence god knows of the absolute morality, this just seems to me as an unacheivable nirvana state for humans. Your god does not appear to want you to know what the absolute morality is otherwise this would have been made crystal clear for all. Humans are fallible and flawed we will never be able to agree on and know what an absolute objective morality is. Does this mean that an absolute morality does not exist? No, but it is difficult for me to see any evidence that one does exist, it seems purely conceptual. For those that don't believe in god we won't agree with you when you say there is an absolute morality and only god knows it. For those that do believe in god but through different religions they will agree on the concept of absolute morality but will not agree on what it looks like. [quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1307471319' post='2250872'] Are they looking at things more objectively than all other societies of the day? This would imply that 90+% of the world's societies throughout history have looked at these things non-objectively. It's possible, but unlikely that the rest of the world's societies would have all become caught in such a silly bunch of delusions as to think that marriage was important and euthanasia was bad. [/quote] I disagree that we can know the truth by simply going by the majority view. there was a time when almost all people thought the world was flat, or thought that the sun revolved around the earth. [quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1307471319' post='2250872'] Is it a misguided sense of compassion? If so, the societies that adopt those policies could become unstable and eventually collapse. This could explain why societies that subscribed to such theories in the past have not survived to the present. It's entirely possible that this is the 'religious effect' that you've been looking for; the one that explains why religion improves a society's evolutionary chance of success. [/quote] This is interesting, are you saying that the earthly consequence of a society not following god's objective morality means that the errant society will fail? [quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1307471319' post='2250872'] Objective morality simply means that if you perfectly understand the complete picture, you would see something as being right or wrong. [/quote] But humans are fallible and flawed, we can never understand the complete picture. [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307508443' post='2251147'] "How?" : The analogy about the inability to judge whether or not an object is stationary in space was provocative, and ultimately sheds light on one objective truth: we are not God. We do not possess all of the answers, and we never will. I recognize that such a response is anathema to atheists or agnostics or those of a scientific-bent, but it is what it is. God's got the answers, and we can seek them valiantly and still wind up empty-handed. Yet, there's virtue in the search; whether or not you recognize it, there's grace in looking for these answers. God gave us the ability to think and reason and deduce and question so that we can come to know Him, not as senseless automatons but as beings acting out of a rational-choice. Not everyone gets to that point, [/quote] I like this post and agree with much of it and it has probably influenced my responses above. But the funny thing is that it breaks a perception I have about religion. I thought religion teaches that it knows the truth, that the truth is written within the bible. I didn't think religion encouraged people to look beyond, external and internal, to think, reason, question and deduce, I thought most religious people's thoughts were aligned with the teachings of their flavour of church. [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307508443' post='2251147'] He sees you, trolling... [/quote] Really? You consider my actions as trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307533028' post='2251201'] I like this post and agree with much of it and it has probably influenced my responses above. But the funny thing is that it breaks a perception I have about religion. I thought religion teaches that it knows the truth, that the truth is written within the bible. I didn't think religion encouraged people to look beyond, external and internal, to think, reason, question and deduce, I thought most religious people's thoughts were aligned with the teachings of their flavour of church. Really? You consider my actions as trolling?[/quote] A few things here: 1) The teachings of the Church can be believed and accepted by using the powers of logic and reasoning. It's not as if there is a divide between faith ([i]fides[/i]) and reason ([i]ratio[/i]). One can come to know the Lord, and enter His Holy Catholic Church by observing the world around him/her and considering the teachings of the Church. The greatest saints and doctors of our Church used the cleanest of logic to prove its value--St. Thomas and Augustine standing at the fore. Further, a great document written by Pope John Paul II, entitled [i]Fides et Ratio[/i] speaks of the compatabilty between faith and scientific reasoning. They need not be pitted against each other the way some would like to. I encourage you to check it out. 2) I don't consider your actions trolling. It was a little joke that probably didn't translate well. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307387695' post='2250499'] It seems that god did not write on my heart that Euthanasia is wrong. Most atheists (who don't believe in gods) do not go around wanting to commit murders. They tend to ascribe to a simple and social view of the golden rule. Treat others as you would like to be treated. The consequences of breaking the law is also a deterrant. I would think that if god had written moral law into our hearts then there wouldn't be any moral disputes, we would all just know the common truth, but this isn't the case. [/quote] Seems you accept murder (defined as killing of an innocent person) of the most cowardly kind so long as it is for the most defenseless persons (the unborn and infirm) and motivated by the oh-so-vague principles of "compassion," or more accurately, convenience. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307387803' post='2250500'] Yes, hence I don't like to use the words "moral" or "immoral" [/quote] With atheistic "humanism" in practice these concepts tend to be replaced by "convenient" and "inconvenient." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307267669' post='2250115'] When you say that murder is an objective immoral does this mean that some immorals are subjective? I think Euthanasia is a good example for a little focus. Particularly because I am currently of the opinion that I am strongly for this one. Abortion isn't so clear cut. By my thinking, if we have a terminally ill Atheist suffering a long and painful road to imminent death, then I am really struggling with the thought that this atheist can't choose a compassionate controlled and medically supervised termination of life. It seems that other peoples belief in gods and stance against Euthanasia is preventing this becoming legal. How could an atheist understand the objective morality with regards to Euthanasia. If natural law comes into effect, then how does a person tap into that? You cannot simply ask mother nature and expect a succinct answer. My innerself, my reasoning and my compassion tells me that it is OK for the person to choose Euthanasia. Please tell me how I would expect to know what the objective morality would be in this circumstance. [/quote] How do you define how ill a person needs to be and and how imminent his death is in order to justify killing him? After all, death is imminent sooner or later for all of us "mortal men doomed to die" (to use Tolkien's phrase). Do we simply kill anyone who asks for it? If not, who makes the decisions? Very slippery slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1307558134' post='2251341'] Do we simply kill anyone who asks for it? [/quote] Well, what would be the problem with that, if you don't mind me asking. It's something I've never quite understood, myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1307557872' post='2251339'] Seems you accept murder (defined as killing of an innocent person) of the most cowardly kind so long as it is for the most defenseless persons (the unborn and infirm) and motivated by the oh-so-vague principles of "compassion," or more accurately, convenience. With atheistic "humanism" in practice these concepts tend to be replaced by "convenient" and "inconvenient." [/quote] Love it when people want to talk on behalf of Atheists rather than asking an Atheist to clarify, their biggotry is always revealing and often humorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1307558134' post='2251341'] How do you define how ill a person needs to be and and how imminent his death is in order to justify killing him? After all, death is imminent sooner or later for all of us "mortal men doomed to die" (to use Tolkien's phrase). Do we simply kill anyone who asks for it? If not, who makes the decisions? Very slippery slope. [/quote] I would say that society needs to implement some rules around Euthanasia, best defined by doctors than myself. Going by the golden rule "Treat others as you would like to be treated." If I were going to be in excrutiating pain for the rest of my shortened life, I would want to be put to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307559967' post='2251359'] Well, what would be the problem with that, if you don't mind me asking. It's something I've never quite understood, myself. [/quote] I think we treat our animals who are terminally ill with more compassion than we do other human beings, who request that their life be ended . Edited June 8, 2011 by xSilverPhinx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307560027' post='2251360'] Love it when people want to talk on behalf of Atheists rather than asking an Atheist to clarify, their biggotry is always revealing and often humorous. [/quote] Don't you love it how they try to dehumanise a humanist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307560027' post='2251360'] Love it when people want to talk on behalf of Atheists rather than asking an Atheist to clarify, their biggotry is always revealing and often humorous. [/quote] [MOD]personal attack- MIKolbe[/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307569307' post='2251416'] You'll never get anything but a caustic, condescending response out of Soc. Just letting you know that in advance so you don't waste your time being surprised when you he acts like a person [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307390934' post='2250535'] Intuitive knowledge, empathy and the biological aversion towards harming others for no good reason. I don't call those things 'god', however. [/quote] I'm curious as to what you mean by "intuitive knowledge." Do you mean something we all know or is it something you've learned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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