The Objective Morality Debate

[kujo]

Not quite sure how you rationalize the following statements.

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1308058346' post='2253566']
classic athiesm right here. when your arguements fail you resort to insults. you claim catholics are insulting yet you go on to insult catholics on these boards.[/quote]

[quote]thanks for bringing your typical athiest mindset to the phorums. your a shinning example of how athiests truley are. insulting, condesending and all about pushing their beliefs on others and are against equality.
[/quote]

[img]http://www.papatodd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg[/img]

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308059039' post='2253574']
Not quite sure how you rationalize the following statements.





[img]http://www.papatodd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


telling the truth and being frank about it is not insulting. everything i listed is how athiests act and how this athiest acted.

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308058370' post='2253567']
But isn't that kinda the whole point of any social or political agenda? Republicans want to "push" their beliefs on the public, as do the Democrats. Christians have a certain idea about what our world should look like, and work towards it every day, just like Muslims, Jews, Humanists, atheists, etc. That's kinda just part of being human--you think you're right and you want others to be right, too.
[/quote]


absolutly. i never said it wasn't. my point was, athiests try to say the opposite about thermselves and we know this is not true. athiests try to claim people of faith push their ideas and beliefs on the people and that is wrong and that athiests are all fun loving people who only want everyone to be all inclusive and they are the most understanding people compared to bigoted religious people. athiests claim they are better because they don't want to push their beliefs on people like religious people do. although that is a flat out lie. they want to push their beliefs on people just as much as they claim people of religion do. the only difference is they lie about it. they try to decieve people into thinking that athiesm is all about equality and inclusiveness. although in reality its all about pushing their beliefs on people and exluding everyone who doesn't fit into their mold.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1308061571' post='2253597']
telling the truth and being frank about it is not insulting. everything i listed is how athiests act and how this athiest acted.
[/quote]

Wouldn't he/she (wouldn't want to make THAT mistake again) say that same thing about how some of the Catholics on this board have acted? And isn't it the same logical fallacy to assume that a certain cluster of people who share similar beliefs are representative of ALL people who share those beliefs?

[Theresita Nerita]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307615682' post='2251603']
Is it possible to consider, that god doesn't want people to know the absolute objective truth. It certainly has not been revealed to a level of detail that is useful. Going by the discussions and actions of humans it seems collectively we don't have a clue.

What if god doesn't want people to be aligned in their understandings, what if the goal isn't to know the truth, but to simply learn how to get along with each other?

To converse, collaborate, cooporate and compromise. To tolerate each other, to support each other, to love and be compassionate and to take joy from the diversity of others.

[/quote]

I like that idea. I've often thought of it when I think of people I know who are super amesome agnostics who totally have all the virtues you could want in a Christian without even trying, and I think, that's good of God, to give them everything I search and seek for without us having to reach the same "conclusions."

The original questions:

1) Yes there is objective truth, including objective morality.

2) If there is an objective truth and objective morality, then there is a universal authority - call it God. I believe that we are ALL more in contact with this authority than we think, but we are also all separated from it somehow...original sin? idk.

3) I would argue that it is fully revealed in the teachings of Jesus, but even the Church, while she's closer to it and more reliable than any other person or corporation (b/c the only corporation truly based on those teachings), very seldom succeeds in communicating it fully to her people. When she succeeds, there are saints. When she fails, there are the rest of us. Maybe she's not supposed to be able to communicate it fully - so that we have to turn to God for that.

Even the Church recognizes that very few if any people know what is objectively morally right - hence the "knowledge" clause about mortal sin. What that basically means is that in God's judgment (unlike bigoted human judgments) it will be taken into account what we know, our ignorance of objective truth.

I have to admit that this ignorance of people and societies, their blind grasping after truth, all the people that are killed every day in the name of some "greater good" when the greatest good is human life itself (yeah, i'm a humanist)...all the hatred that is suffered through and all the compassionately-motivated humane ideals that turn to slaughter because they weren't purely based on truth (the entire twentieth century, anyone? euthanasia, anyone?) is painful to see in the newspapers. And I think, "Why couldn't you have made us a little bit smarter, God, so we could see a little clearer what is good?????"

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1308061947' post='2253604']
absolutly. i never said it wasn't. my point was, athiests try to say the opposite about thermselves and we know this is not true. athiests try to claim people of faith push their ideas and beliefs on the people and that is wrong and that athiests are all fun loving people who only want everyone to be all inclusive and they are the most understanding people compared to bigoted religious people. athiests claim they are better because they don't want to push their beliefs on people like religious people do. although that is a flat out lie. they want to push their beliefs on people just as much as they claim people of religion do. the only difference is they lie about it. they try to decieve people into thinking that athiesm is all about equality and inclusiveness. although in reality its all about pushing their beliefs on people and exluding everyone who doesn't fit into their mold.
[/quote]

I think there's a good bit of assumption going on here. But, as elsewhere, this seems to be your tactic. It's called a strawman argument.

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308061965' post='2253605']
Wouldn't he/she (wouldn't want to make THAT mistake again) say that same thing about how some of the Catholics on this board have acted? And isn't it the same logical fallacy to assume that a certain cluster of people who share similar beliefs are representative of ALL people who share those beliefs?
[/quote]


its different. he is insulting the catholic church calling it sexist and catholisim is not about being supportive and tolerant. he insults the catholic church and not her members and he lies about it. unless you can find me anywhere in the catholic church teaching that says catholics should be sexist, not supportive or not tolerant then he is lying about the catholic church andbeing insulting. comments about individual catholics being mean or unsupportive are one thing. claiming the catholic organization stands for these things is not ok and is an insult and a flat out lie.

[havok579257]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308062056' post='2253607']
I think there's a good bit of assumption going on here. But, as elsewhere, this seems to be your tactic. It's called a strawman argument.
[/quote]


so is it your claim that athiest have no desire to push their beliefs on people? that its only people like chirstians who want to push their beliefs on people? that is everyone could be like athiests say and remove all things about God and religion from society then this world would be a better place? is that your claim? cause that's what athiests claim.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1308062246' post='2253608']
its different.
[/quote]

Of course it is. It's different because he's maligning YOUR group, which is [s]the same [/s][i]totally[/i] different than you (and others) maligning his.

[kujo]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1308062369' post='2253611']
so is it your claim that athiest have no desire to push their beliefs on people? that its only people like chirstians who want to push their beliefs on people? that is everyone could be like athiests say and remove all things about God and religion from society then this world would be a better place? is that your claim? cause that's what athiests claim.
[/quote]

That is not my claim. I think that the individual who doesn't believe in God probably doesn't give a croutons what you or I believe; however, as with every other interest in an open society like our own, there are people who would seek to politicize this issue and extend their beliefs into the public sector. They form groups and lobby local, state and federal policymakers and seek to see their beliefs recognized on whatever scale they focus on. In my mind, that focus and effort is no different than the same ones taken by literally every other interest group in this country. The only thing that separates it is that you (and I) don't agree with it.

But, again, I am of the opinion that Joe Schmo Atheist doesn't care what we believe. We really shouldn't care what he or she believes either.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308059039' post='2253574']Not quite sure how you rationalize the following statements.





[img]http://www.papatodd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg[/img][/quote]+1

Edited June 14, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[stevil]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308062754' post='2253613']
But, again, I am of the opinion that Joe Schmo Atheist doesn't care what we believe. We really shouldn't care what he or she believes either.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to teach anyone that there is no god. I don't think we should have anti theist messages on money or any government related object. I don't think we should abolish churches or scripture.
But the government has no place for promoting Christianity or god either. The government needs to represent the people which includes all religions and non religions. This derailled argument is rather silly.

[kujo]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1308078930' post='2253710']
I'm not trying to teach anyone that there is no god. I don't think we should have anti theist messages on money or any government related object. I don't think we should abolish churches or scripture.
But the government has no place for promoting Christianity or god either. The government needs to represent the people which includes all religions and non religions. This derailled argument is rather silly.
[/quote]

So would I be right in saying that you, as an atheist, don't have any interest in what my personal beliefs on religion are.

[stevil]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308053821' post='2253543']
While I certainly appreciate your kind words, I must attempt to disabuse you of the belief that Catholics are sexist. Simply saying that there are roles that must be filled by a certain gender does NOT make one a sexist. For, while women are not meant to be priests, men are equally not meant to be nuns. One role is not any more or less important than the other--go to a parish and see how vital the religious sisters that work there are. Often times they are in charge of the school, the parish office administration, the elderly care facilities and/or the youth ministry/religious instruction. With my parish, it was both the elderly care facility that we had on-site (one of the largest in the town) as well as the K-8 school. The religious sisters were VITAL to the success of both. And while they still answered to the pastor at our parish, they earned a large degree of autonomy through their results.

Catholics believe that man and women are separate entities, each with intrinsic value that is wholly equal and wholly different. That is not sexist at all, for neither is better or worse than the other. They're just different.
[/quote]
I'd like to see the day that the Priest is officially answerable to a nun.
I'd like to see a nun perform a service and communicate to the people. I really do struggle to see how sex organs have anything to do with the role. But i have already had this discussion here. No point beating a dead horse.

[stevil]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308079008' post='2253711']
So would I be right in saying that you, as an atheist, don't have any interest in what my personal beliefs on religion are.
[/quote]
Not quite, I have no interest in changing your beliefs or proving them wrong. But on some aspects I am interested in you and your beliefs and possibly why you think the way you do.
It helps me understand catholics better and possibly break some perceptions of mine, you know like the sexism perception.
I know that Catholics don't think the rule that a priest must be male is sexist, they call upon tradition, but for me it is very hard to see it this way.