TradMom Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307119168' post='2249490'] its not for me... i was taught the mystical beauty and splendor of the Mass by my mom at a very early early age...i've always believed this is what teens need, not the rock n roll guitar choirs or the Priest who celebrates the Mass like Jay Leno does the Tonite Show... ...no need to make the Mass more "exciting.." I mean, what can be more exciting than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving Himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist? I've recognized a real hunger in teens, and it isn't satisfied by "gimmicks." All you need to feed them is Truth... Again, I'm not familiar with the "reverent" version of LifeTeen, as the only version I've witnessed is some psuedo-protestant, wishy washy stuff--a failure in every sense of the word...it hasn't evangelized the youth in my parish, and after confirmation, our Mass attendance is missing a whole generation of youth.... [/quote] +Praised be Jesus Christ! This is a beautiful answer and I feel the same way. On a personal level, I am very disheartened by the founder's situation and some the antics I have witnessed at our neighboring parish; and in no way could it be described as "reverent." I am very much against "teens" sitting on the altar, I don't like the focus on the "Teen Mass" and many other things - too numerous to mention, but perhaps most importantly, I believe that Life Teen has brought the "secular" into the "sacred," and that being said - I am glad my children have had the experience of sacred music, and serious instruction regarding what it means to be a Roman Catholic. I believe with my whole heart that our family would not have been blessed with vocations to traditional religious orders had it not been for their introduction into the Church. You are right in mentioning "gimmicks." I have seen that personally and left afterwards feeling very sad. And Dust - yes, I have read through the materials. I am on the board at our parish and when one of the priests suggested it, I was chosen (I did not volunteer) to read through it. He had used it at his past parish, and I thoroughly studied/reviewed/read the materials; including some of the videos and the work that had been done at his prior parish. I DID see some positive attributes, but I believed it was too dependent upon an individual (including the priest) to "make it work." I believed then and do now, that ANY program at parish needs to be about ongoing formation, independent faith development (i.e., no "gimmicks" or "dumbing down" anything) and a concentration on creating a truly sacred space (complete with statues, art, stained glass, a CRUCIFIX, an altar, a Tabernacle, etc.) for intergenerational worship/adoration/prayer in a fully Roman Catholic manner; that means - in my opinion - that ANYone should be able to walk into a Church and recognize the Mass as "their" Mass. In our diocese, we have spent so much time on "cultural experiences" that we seem to have forgotten - totally - that we share a ROMAN CATHOLIC culture, with our home and heart in Rome. I personally do not believe in separating teens (or for that matter - ANY group) apart. If we give them sacred music and introduce them to traditional devotions and proper liturgy - they DO get it. I find it very insulting that teens are constantly been thought of as "needing" special music, "fun" priests, etc. I realize that many of the people on this board love Life Teen, and I am glad you all seem to have experienced something so enriching. All programs (including formation in religious life) need guidance and well qualified people to organize them. So for those of you who have fond memories and feel good/positive about the program, you should thank your parish staff and Youth Minister, for they obviously did something right. Pax, TradMom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307121386' post='2249494'] Sometimes I wish I could bring all you LIFE TEEN haters on Phatmass to my parish. You all seem to have these really snooty, condescending attitude towards it, based probably on some combination of bad personal experiences and YouTube videos that show things that don't conform to your vision of holiness or whatever. It's actually pretty infuriating, and while I love me some DS (you know it, sis!), I feel the need to come to the defense of the program I know and love, to save it from the disparaging remarks that get thrown at it around here. [/quote] i've never looked at youtube videos of lifeteen, cos that program doesn't interest me. All I've seen is the program implemented at my hometown parish, which leaves much to be desired. I made sure to state in my comment, that I've never witnessed a "reverent" version of the program, so, if that is the way it is for you, than I'm happy for you. It definitely isn't that way in my hometown parish. Instead, it seems to leave our youth with no idea what to believe in, and with a relativist attitude toward God and the Catholic Faith. If your program teaches you to have reverence toward God during the Mass, and what the Mass is all about, and brings the youth closer to God and the Sacraments, and makes them want to stay in the Church long after their Confirmation is over, then I am happy for you. Taht is not what Lifeteen does at my parish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I want to re-iterate this sentence: [quote]...no need to make the Mass more "exciting.." I mean, what can be more exciting than Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ giving Himself to us in the Sacrament of the Eucharist?[/quote] ...there are no gimmicks when it comes to establishing a relationship with Jesus Christ...that's what is desperately needed with not only the Youth but the Church overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307126558' post='2249529'] i've never looked at youtube videos of lifeteen, cos that program doesn't interest me. All I've seen is the program implemented at my hometown parish, which leaves much to be desired. I made sure to state in my comment, that I've never witnessed a "reverent" version of the program, so, if that is the way it is for you, than I'm happy for you. It definitely isn't that way in my hometown parish. Instead, it seems to leave our youth with no idea what to believe in, and with a relativist attitude toward God and the Catholic Faith. If your program teaches you to have reverence toward God during the Mass, and what the Mass is all about, and brings the youth closer to God and the Sacraments, and makes them want to stay in the Church long after their Confirmation is over, then I am happy for you. Taht is not what Lifeteen does at my parish. [/quote] Seems like that's more an indictment on the people in charge of the youth group, ya know? Since it's [i]their[/i] job to get all of that accomplished. Edited June 3, 2011 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307126686' post='2249530'] I want to re-iterate this sentence: ...there are no gimmicks when it comes to establishing a relationship with Jesus Christ...that's what is desperately needed with not only the Youth but the Church overall. [/quote] Agreed. I think critics of the program are the only people who see relational ministry as a "gimmick" though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='TradMom' timestamp='1307126453' post='2249528'] +Praised be Jesus Christ! This is a beautiful answer and I feel the same way. On a personal level, I am very disheartened by the founder's situation and some the antics I have witnessed at our neighboring parish; and in no way could it be described as "reverent." I am very much against "teens" sitting on the altar, I don't like the focus on the "Teen Mass" and many other things - too numerous to mention, but perhaps most importantly, I believe that Life Teen has brought the "secular" into the "sacred," and that being said - I am glad my children have had the experience of sacred music, and serious instruction regarding what it means to be a Roman Catholic. I believe with my whole heart that our family would not have been blessed with vocations to traditional religious orders had it not been for their introduction into the Church. You are right in mentioning "gimmicks." I have seen that personally and left afterwards feeling very sad. And Dust - yes, I have read through the materials. I am on the board at our parish and when one of the priests suggested it, I was chosen (I did not volunteer) to read through it. He had used it at his past parish, and I thoroughly studied/reviewed/read the materials; including some of the videos and the work that had been done at his prior parish. I DID see some positive attributes, but I believed it was too dependent upon an individual (including the priest) to "make it work." I believed then and do now, that ANY program at parish needs to be about ongoing formation, independent faith development (i.e., no "gimmicks" or "dumbing down" anything) and a concentration on creating a truly sacred space (complete with statues, art, stained glass, a CRUCIFIX, an altar, a Tabernacle, etc.) for intergenerational worship/adoration/prayer in a fully Roman Catholic manner; that means - in my opinion - that ANYone should be able to walk into a Church and recognize the Mass as "their" Mass. In our diocese, we have spent so much time on "cultural experiences" that we seem to have forgotten - totally - that we share a ROMAN CATHOLIC culture, with our home and heart in Rome. I personally do not believe in separating teens (or for that matter - ANY group) apart. If we give them sacred music and introduce them to traditional devotions and proper liturgy - they DO get it. I find it very insulting that teens are constantly been thought of as "needing" special music, "fun" priests, etc. I realize that many of the people on this board love Life Teen, and I am glad you all seem to have experienced something so enriching. All programs (including formation in religious life) need guidance and well qualified people to organize them. So for those of you who have fond memories and feel good/positive about the program, you should thank your parish staff and Youth Minister, for they obviously did something right. Pax, TradMom [/quote] I respect this response because, while it is critical of LIFE TEEN--which I am too, btw-- it does so without the looking-down-your-nose attitude that seems to permeate discussions like these. I disagree with the overall point, and the false dichotomy that lies at the heart of it--secular v.s. sacred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I just want to define what I mean by "gimmicks." When St. John Bosco catechized youth, he'd get their attention with tricks, and perform stunts, and do his best to entertain the youth. In the process, he would incorporate the Gospel and teach them some catechism. These gimmicks of his, to attract youth, were performed OUTSIDE of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is NO need for secular "entertainment" in the Mass. Let the Mass stand for Itself. Give the youth a chance to meet Jesus and fall in love with Him in the Mass as It is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307127549' post='2249536'] I just want to define what I mean by "gimmicks." When St. John Bosco catechized youth, he'd get their attention with tricks, and perform stunts, and do his best to entertain the youth. In the process, he would incorporate the Gospel and teach them some catechism. These gimmicks of his, to attract youth, were performed OUTSIDE of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is NO need for secular "entertainment" in the Mass. Let the Mass stand for Itself. Give the youth a chance to meet Jesus and fall in love with Him in the Mass as It is. [/quote] Okay. So, what sort of in-mass gimmicks are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307127549' post='2249536'] I just want to define what I mean by "gimmicks." When St. John Bosco catechized youth, he'd get their attention with tricks, and perform stunts, and do his best to entertain the youth. In the process, he would incorporate the Gospel and teach them some catechism. These gimmicks of his, to attract youth, were performed OUTSIDE of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There is NO need for secular "entertainment" in the Mass. Let the Mass stand for Itself. Give the youth a chance to meet Jesus and fall in love with Him in the Mass as It is. [/quote] I have to agree with this wholeheartedly - and also say that I think I have only ever been to one 'gimmicky' Mass, which was aimed at adults and went so off course I actually left! I feel saddened, though, when lively music is considered a gimmick. Don't get me wrong, there can be times when the music group seems to be more intent on putting on a performance than aiding worship, but I have also seen that with traditional choirs, and even some alter servers who seem determined to take centre stage! When worship is authentic, when it is from the heart and focused on Christ, it shows and it draws people closer to God - whether it is modern or medieval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307127686' post='2249538'] Okay. So, what sort of in-mass gimmicks are you referring to? [/quote] the rock n roll bands, complete with metal guitars, and drums, singing the protestant praise-and worship music that is NOT acceptable in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass---The priest acting the show-host, complete with jokes and "dumbing" down the readings as if teens were not smart enuff to understand the Liturgy of the Word as it is written. The huggy, grab your neighbors, and lets hold hands around the altar scene, and allowing teens to hand out Holy Communion to make them feel "included," even when 1-that ministry is supposed to be extraordinary, and 2- there is obvious improper training of these youth, who most of the time do not understand the importance of this duty. I'm sure the Church approves of LifeTeen, but like everything else, it is the way it is implemented that matters. Personally, I don't think the Holy Mass needs to be re-constructed to appeal to a specific group. (I also disapprove of Polka Masses.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307128530' post='2249548'] I feel saddened, though, when lively music is considered a gimmick. Don't get me wrong, there can be times when the music group seems to be more intent on putting on a performance than aiding worship, but I have also seen that with traditional choirs, and even some alter servers who seem determined to take centre stage! When worship is authentic, when it is from the heart and focused on Christ, it shows and it draws people closer to God - whether it is modern or medieval. [/quote] +1 (ya'll remember that system, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1307128668' post='2249554'] the rock n roll bands, complete with metal guitars, and drums, singing the protestant praise-and worship music that is NOT acceptable in celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass---The priest acting the show-host, complete with jokes and "dumbing" down the readings as if teens were not smart enuff to understand the Liturgy of the Word as it is written. The huggy, grab your neighbors, and lets hold hands around the altar scene, and allowing teens to hand out Holy Communion to make them feel "included," even when 1-that ministry is supposed to be extraordinary, and 2- there is obvious improper training of these youth, who most of the time do not understand the importance of this duty. I'm sure the Church approves of LifeTeen, but like everything else, it is the way it is implemented that matters. Personally, I don't think the Holy Mass needs to be re-constructed to appeal to a specific group. (I also disapprove of Polka Masses.) [/quote] Well, your taste in the music is a matter of opinion and the whole "around the altar" thing has been discouraged by the program since 2002 (when JP2 basically said "stop it!"); however, your characterization of the teens as Eucharistic Ministers is unfair. I became an EM when I was 17 along with 3 people from the youth group who were seen to be among the most spiritually mature for such an enormous task. We then went through a several week long class, and had a retreat weekend with the deacon in our parish, all before we were honored with this task. I would say that this is the norm, DS. Because, if I'm not mistaken, that's kinda the Diocesan rule on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307129395' post='2249559'] We then went through a several week long class, and had a retreat weekend with the deacon in our parish, all before we were honored with this task. I would say that this is the norm, DS. Because, if I'm not mistaken, that's kinda the Diocesan rule on the matter. [/quote] that is not the norm in my diocese, even for adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307129395' post='2249559'] Well, your taste in the music is a matter of opinion and the whole "around the altar" thing has been discouraged by the program since 2002 (when JP2 basically said "stop it!"); however, your characterization of the teens as Eucharistic Ministers is unfair. I became an EM when I was 17 along with 3 people from the youth group who were seen to be among the most spiritually mature for such an enormous task. We then went through a several week long class, and had a retreat weekend with the deacon in our parish, all before we were honored with this task. I would say that this is the norm, DS. Because, if I'm not mistaken, that's kinda the Diocesan rule on the matter. [/quote] well, the Church lays out the rules for music. I've played the organ for the Church for decades, and I've never read any document that supports playing protestant praise and worship music at Mass...to do so is really an abuse, especially when some of the lyrics contain words that are not in sync with Catholic theology...so it is more than a matter of my opinion. AS far as EMs go, there is abuse all around, I don't even think the majority of Masses need the adult EM's, as that role is really for extraordinary means. I'm glad you were well trained and honored to perform that ministry, but if you saw what I've seen: teenaged girls wearing very low cut blouses, wearing the shortest shorts and handing out Jesus, it makes you wonder if they truly understand what it is they are doing. Also, when you see the kids chewing gum as they hand out Communion, it also makes you wonder.... I do not attend those Masses any more. I found them too distracting for my tastes. I do not mean to generalize LifeTeen, but this is the ONLY experience I've had with it. I'm not trying to bash the program in those locations where it actually provides the means for teens to get closer to Christ... Edited June 3, 2011 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307117718' post='2249488'] I regard LifeTeen in a similar way to the so-called Charismatic Renewal. [/quote] Blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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