The Fallacy Of Sainthood

[CreepyCrawler]

ooohh... isidore that was great! i even learned something thanks

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 08:05 AM'] well, I'm not gonna say I wasn't feelin kinda lonely for a bit.... [/quote]
I'm hanging about but I'm not exactly a stereotypical protestant.

[Dave]

Uh, Hazilloe, out of curiosity I did a search of your past posts here, as your name sounded familiar. Here's the first post you did here at Phatmass, which was back in December: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=5158&st=0entry80953"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t=0entry80953[/url]

What happened? Why the complete 180?

[Hazilloe]

[quote name='Isidore' date='Apr 25 2004, 09:46 AM'] Greetings,

The premise of your questions is whether or not a Saint had gone to confession during their life. The many points brought up in this thread clearly shows that becoming a Saint is much more complicated than that.

The answer to your question in general is that a Saint does not have to go to confession. Saints are presumed to be in heaven because their life showed that they followed the word of the Lord. Their life proved that they performed the acts of a Christian, and lived their life as Jesus spelled out for us in the Beatitudes from the book of Mathew....

The text of St. Matthew runs as follows:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

The first Saints were actually Martyrs, those who gave up their life for their belief in Jesus Christ. They were fed to the lions, yet did not renounce their faith to save their lives. Anyone who sacrifices themselves for the word of the Lord are in fact Blessed, since they had shown the supreme proof of love by giving their lives for Christ; by their sufferings, they had attained eternal life and were indefectibly united to Christ, the Head of the Mystical Body. These reasons induced the Christians, still oppressed by persecution, to invoke the intercession of the martyrs. They begged them to intercede before God to obtain for the faithful on earth the grace to imitate the martyrs in the unquestioning and complete profession of faith [1 Tim. 2:1-5, Phil. 3:17] . They did not have to be proven to have gone to confession.

So your premise is incorrect.

I think you are using cofession as a way to disprove the entire idea of Sainthood. So one must go a little further in understanding of what Sainthood means. Toward the end of the great Roman persecutions, this veneration of Saints, which had been reserved to martyrs, was extended to those who, even without dying for the faith, had nonetheless defended it and suffered for it, confessors of the faith (confessores fidei). Within a short time, this same veneration was extended to those who had been outstanding for their exemplary Christian life, especially in austerity and penitence, as well as to those who excelled in Catholic doctrine (doctors of the Church), in apostolic zeal (bishops and missionaries), or in charity and the evangelical spirit .

The first step in the canonization proccess is stil that of Beatification, showing through the prospective Saint's life that they lived as Jesus commanded us. The person in question fits whithin the framework of those that Jesus himself said were blessed. Basically if they lived their life as Jesus told us, then they in fact are blessed, because Jesus does not lie. The church simply put in place a process to identify and verify that these individuals did in fact live their life in accordance with Jesus teachings. Through process of Beatification, the life of the person is catalogued for review and scrutiny. At this point, by Jesus word and the life and deeds of the candidate they are in fact in heaven. Again, we know this not because of the church, but because Jesus told us on the mound. That those who are blessed will be in heaven.

After Beatification, there is still more to the process. Before someone is elevated to the position of Sainthood, there needs to be proof, that not only are they in Heaven; there needs to be proof that the person can in fact assist from Heaven. This is where miracles come into play.Again, it must be emphasized here that the Pope does not allow someone into Heaven, or deny anyones entry into Heaven. The Pope through investigation, and documentation simply has shown that the person meets all of the criteria set by Jesus. to be worthy of Beatification. So by Jesus' words the person is in fact in Heaven. So if one were to pray for that persons intercession concerning some matter, the Beatified could in fact hear and intercede.

So after Beatification there needs to be proof that someone had prayed to the Beatified person for intercession, and the Beatified in question did in fact intercede on behalf of the person praying. This is where miracles come in.

At this point, most Protestants will bring up our worship of the Saints. So let's look at what Catholics really believe. Catholic Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the Saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of Saints in heaven who are fully united to God be?

[b]And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)[/b]

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one -- qaddiysh -- to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

[b]"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).[/b]

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

So we in fact do not worship the Saints, we pray to the Saints for their help in delivering our prayers to God, because they are there with God. Not because the Pope says, but because the Bible says.

So the Pope does not allow, or grant a Saint a place in Heaven. The Pope merely states officially that by the proof afforded us through the life works of the individual in question, that they are in fact worthy of Beatification. Then by their acts after their death, that they are worthy of Sainthood. Not by the Popes rules, but by the word of our lord.

So Sainthood, is simply the presumption that the person lived a good enough life to get to heaven. As such we as Catholics can pray to God, asking these Saints to assist us, plea our case to God. Because by God's words, these people who lived their life as God commanded, are in Heaven.

Can the Pope be wrong? Sure, but it is highly unlikely. That is where infallibillity comes in to play. In this instance, infallibility simply means that if a Pope says someone is in heaven, we as Catholics cannot be held liable, if for instance the person is not in Heaven. Infallibillity here does not mean that because the Pope grants the title of Sainthood on an individual, they are brought into heaven. So basically it is possible that centiuries of study, and of prayer and thought could be wrong. That does not harm us as believers.

Let us sum this up....

Beatification, the first step in the Sainthood process comes from Jesus.

Sainthood is a designation that let's us as Catholics know that the Saint is in Heaven through the proof in the acts performed during their life and after their death.

All of this comes from the Bible, not the Pope.

Confession does not really matter.

Finally, prayer to the Saints is taught to us in the Bible. [/quote]
sorry for mocking you.

won't happen again.


anyway, i get what you are saying.

but baptism by blood removes all wrong-doing in one's life and gets a free-ticket to heaven.

according to catholicism.

i was using confession as an example. i could use ten thousand examples of why someone that [i]appears[/i] to have led a good life, and did, but never did any of those things that would put you in heaven.

like confession.
like privately worshipping satan.
like privately being an atheist.
like privately being a buddhist.
etc etc etc etc.

the fact is, the catholic church has no authority to say "this person is in heaven".

because no one knows all the facts.

for all i know Augustine tried to kill himself and never confessed.

for all you know it could have happened.



and don't patronize me, i know how canonization works.

and stop trying to prove that you don't worship saints.
i honestly don't care if you do or not.


(last bit isnt directed toward you but to some earlier post stating that the Catholic Church can never be in error or never deceived)

that's completely ridiculous.

i hate to be so obvious, but the witch hunts and the inquisitions of the middle ages were mostly the catholic church's doing.

[Hazilloe]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 25 2004, 10:36 AM'] Uh, Hazilloe, out of curiosity I did a search of your past posts here, as your name sounded familiar. Here's the first post you did here at Phatmass, which was back in December: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=5158&st=0entry80953"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t=0entry80953[/url]

What happened? Why the complete 180? [/quote]
because i was wasting my time with catholicism.

there is no god.

at least not the type christians or muslims believe.

i think you're all doing calisthenics every sunday with your kneeling
standing
sitting
kneeling
standing
sitting

for nothing.

all you're eating is a cracker.

all you're drinking is wine.


you see, before i was very uncomfortable with the thought that humanity is directing itself.

that's how most religions start.

we're worried about how dumb we are.

anyway, so the idea of a god that cares about us appealed to me.

now i'm quite happy believing that humanity is damning itself every chance it can get.

nuclear war is the only saving grace of humanity.

not jesus christ.

[cmotherofpirl]

How sad to look forward to oblivion.

You must have been hurt badly.

[Dave]

[quote name='Hazilloe' date='Apr 25 2004, 02:10 PM'] because i was wasting my time with catholicism.

there is no god.

at least not the type christians or muslims believe.

i think you're all doing calisthenics every sunday with your kneeling
standing
sitting
kneeling
standing
sitting

for nothing.

all you're eating is a cracker.

all you're drinking is wine.


you see, before i was very uncomfortable with the thought that humanity is directing itself.

that's how most religions start.

we're worried about how dumb we are.

anyway, so the idea of a god that cares about us appealed to me.

now i'm quite happy believing that humanity is damning itself every chance it can get.

nuclear war is the only saving grace of humanity.

not jesus christ. [/quote]
How tragic that you think that. I'm going to pray for you big-time!

[God Conquers]

Haziloe,
I hope you stick around on this site to try and flesh out what you believe.

It's important that you are able to feel free to explore what you seem to believe now, and compare it to what you have previously believed.

That being said, I hope to understand how you could have made such a long journey in the short months in your absence.

I made such a journey once, and hope that you do not feel too much resentment, hatred or sadness to make the journey home.

God does love you. No matter what happenes, no matter what you do, and he's waiting for you to return that love.

Faith is a gift, if you have lost it, you can ask for it back. This is all it takes sometimes.

Hope you stay and debate.

[ironmonk]

Hazilloe,

Please read this article: [url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html[/url]


Refute that and prove it wrong with creditable references, and I'll join you.

Seeing that you think there is no God now, that must mean that you are a searcher of Truth.

For the sake of Truth, please read the article.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Isidore]

Hazilloe.

So, your question is not really about Catholic doctrine at all. Why focus on such things? You have made up your mind, no God. At least not the God of Christians or Muslims. Well, that is fine. If you have made up your mind, then show us. Who is the real God?

You see, many people feel they will find God, or find proof that God does not exist in the doctrines, or actions of a religion. That is not at all true. What we as Catholics do, or Muslims, or Jews, or Hindus, or Buddhists; those things we do to celebrate or religion is not the basis of the religion. Faith is, it all begins with faith, and ends with faith. Kneeling, standing, praying, is all extensions of our faith. Not the sum of our faith.

You are right, it is mostly in the hands of us. Weak, earthbound, mortal, failing humans. Every choice we make, every action we take has some cosmic consequence to it. The Bible tells us this, and the laws of Physics tells us this. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Everything in the universe is subject to these laws, whether you want to call it God, or Physics.

You are correct, humans make mistakes. We can err, and we can be led astry quite easily. Are you human?

All I am trying to say here, is that you should not write off so easily God, or for that matter the human race. Stop looking for lies in the Church, and look for truth in the world. Look for truth in yourself. You may find it, and it may very well be outside of the Catholic Church, but what if? What if, the truth did reside in this Church? Just what if? Are you really willing to pass it up?

A movement, started by one guy. 2000 years ago, had eleven devout followers, and grew to billions. Had to be something to it. It, religion, God, Christianity, it is bigger than us. Bigger than anything we as humans could possibly ever imagine. Try starting at the beginning, forget about denomonations. Forget about kneeling, and doctrines. Begin with God, and work your way forward. Focus on your beliefs, and forget about everybody else for awhile. The world, the Universe, these things are huge, and these questions have plagued mankind for many mellinia. The answer is there, just look for it.

Humanity is directing itself, as a whole, and individually. You are in control. What is it, that we are in control of? What is it, that we are supposed to do? Where are we headed? Every sentient being on earth has asked these questions. Are you asking the right questions?

Life is too short. The universe too big, to blast through it in despair. Find your answers, and share them with us. We will share those we find, and somewhere in the midst of chaos, there is truth, comfort, and hope.

[willguy]

[quote]but baptism by blood removes all wrong-doing in one's life and gets a free-ticket to heaven.

according to catholicism.[/quote]
A lot of Protestants will also talk about recieving a "martyr's crown" in heaven. It comes from Revelations.

[quote]i was using confession as an example. i could use ten thousand examples of why someone that appears to have led a good life, and did, but never did any of those things that would put you in heaven.

like confession.
like privately worshipping satan.
like privately being an atheist.
like privately being a buddhist.
etc etc etc etc.[/quote]
You're grasping at straws. Why would any person put on such an elaborate show of Catholicism, so elaborate that they are declared saints, if they didn't really believe it? If you're putting on a show, it'd make more sense to be mediocre.

[quote]and don't patronize me, i know how canonization works.[/quote]
It doesn't show. But since you know so much, then you know that any person must have two miracles attributed to their intercession before they are canonized. Now, the only people who can intercede are the saints in heaven. Therefore, if there is proof of intercession, there is proof of that person being in heaven.

[quote]i hate to be so obvious, but the witch hunts and the inquisitions of the middle ages were mostly the catholic church's doing.[/quote]

Two things:
1. That statement isn't true. THe witch hunts of America were Puritans, not Catholics. Second, if you actually read history, you'll find that Protestants persecuted Catholics just as much as Catholics persecuted Protestants.

[God Conquers]

And also that the inquisition wasn't the murderous and tortuous rampage that many have been lead to believe. The Dominicans kept excellent records.. they are available in Spain, and show very little in the way of torture and even less death sentences.

Some of the stuff that supposedly happenned under the inquisition was the secular state's responses.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 25 2004, 03:53 PM'] Hazilloe,

Please read this article: [url="http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0002.html"]http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html[/url]


Refute that and prove it wrong with creditable references, and I'll join you.

Seeing that you think there is no God now, that must mean that you are a searcher of Truth.

For the sake of Truth, please read the article.

God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
its only wrong if they're credible sources to you...

thats like trying to prove God exists to an atheist by using the Bible... or your decrees, doctrines, and documetns of Catholicism.

oh my.

[Katholikos]

Iron Monk, thanks for this link to Kreeft. His logic is exquisite in its simplicity. If I'd read this (or something akin to this), I might have clawed my way out of the black pit of atheism sooner. But I was determined not to believe, didn't want to believe, so I didn't. Some of Kreeft's arguments are particularly poignant for me, since I finally admitted (to myself) that it was far more logical to believe that God became man than that the universe made itself!

Mortimer Adler, the most influential American philosopher of the 20th century, became a Catholic in December, 1999. My favorite of his many books is "How To Think About God."

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Katholikos]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 25 2004, 08:38 PM'] And also that the inquisition wasn't the murderous and tortuous rampage that many have been lead to believe. The Dominicans kept excellent records.. they are available in Spain, and show very little in the way of torture and even less death sentences.

Some of the stuff that supposedly happenned under the inquisition was the secular state's responses. [/quote]
The wild and exaggerated tales of the Inquisitions are part of the Black Legends invented by Protestants, which are used to attack the Catholic Church. They are falsified history.

For an accurate account of the Spanish Inquisition, read Henry Kamen's book by that title. Kamen is a renouned historian, a Jew from the UK, Oxford trained, a specialist in Inquisition studies. He has studied the original documents and records in Spain and at the Vatican. I doubt that any enemies of the Church will read Kamen, however, since they prefer fiction to fact.

JMJ Likos