The Fallacy Of Sainthood

[Hazilloe]

the nature of confession is that the priest must never tell a soul what he hears in the confessional under danger of excommunication.

[color=red](Please do not mock us)[/color]

anyway, be that as it may how can one [i]prove[/i] that a saint actually made confession?

i bet i could put on a [i]really really[/i] good act for everyone and never make it to confession, and guess what?

i'm canonized as a saint.

according to your beliefs, a saint is someone [i]known[/i] to be in heaven.

(correct me if i'm wrong).

if this is true, or even if the catholic church [i]believes[/i] i am in heaven, wouldn't that put the church in error?

doesn't the pope himself canonize saints?

the popes wrong, therefor the catholic church is wrong.

therefor, the catholic church is just as blind as everyone else.

[the lumberjack]

WELCOME TO PHATMASS!

comin out guns blazin, eh?

wow...

well, I'm not gonna say I wasn't feelin kinda lonely for a bit....though I don't know your doctrinal background.

God bless.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Not everyone in heaven is a canonized saint. Some souls are chosen by God to be canonized to be an example for the rest of us and stuff. There is a formal process before someone can be canonized which is quite involved. And there must be at least two highly investigated and scrutinized miracles before a person can be formally canonized (usually), this is God's stamp of approval as it were. So if you live the life of a saint, and if your cause is promoted and the investigation works and there are the confirmation miracles you are good to go. I hope you do become a saint.

[the lumberjack]

isn't that putting a system of man on something only God can do?

and if there are saints and OTHER souls in heaven, then why the need for the resurrection spoken of before the rapture?

much love laud,

the lumberjack.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 01:13 AM'] isn't that putting a system of man on something only God can do?

and if there are saints and OTHER souls in heaven, then why the need for the resurrection spoken of before the rapture?

much love laud,

the lumberjack. [/quote]
It's a system of man that works in cooperation with God. This is normal in Catholicism. Our whole lives are something "of men", but supernaturalized by cooperation with God and His grace.

Also the thing about the rapture doesn't apply because Catholic teaching doesn't have that. But anyway, the saints in heaven are not resurrected bodily (this happens at the end times), their souls are in heaven, the only exception would be Jesus Himself and Mary.

God bless.

[Margarite]

I don't think that puting on an act would get you canonized, as a matter of fact most saints didn't make a point of being as good as they were, quite the contrary, by their contemporaries they were for the most part unappreciated.

If you want to get an idea of how a saint got to be a saint, I recomend that you read a book or two on the life of a saint. The one that comes to mind cause I just read it is the authorized biography of St. Faustina Kawalska and also the book about the life of Catherine Emerick.

[the lumberjack]

what about Enoch and Elijah?

and wasn't Moses ascending with Christ and Elijah?

so hmm...there goes that theory that only Christ and Mary have bodies...

and I was only giving the Rapture as an example...however, IF we are caught up in the clouds at Christ's second coming, which if you read the chronology of how things will happen (for yourself, no Catholic Church docs), you'll see that the dead in Christ rise right before those still here on earth....THEN some time AFTER, the sea, death and Hades gave up all its dead...hmmmm why don't it mention anywhere else giving up its dead?

because all the Christians are already in heaven...hmmmm...

and as for the system of man cooperating with God...who said that God needed our help in anything?

we are ALL but sinful men, and who are WE to call ANYONE a "saint" worthy of a title that makes them something they are not?

God bless.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 01:29 AM'] what about Enoch and Elijah?

and wasn't Moses ascending with Christ and Elijah?

so hmm...there goes that theory that only Christ and Mary have bodies...

and I was only giving the Rapture as an example...however, IF we are caught up in the clouds at Christ's second coming, which if you read the chronology of how things will happen (for yourself, no Catholic Church docs), you'll see that the dead in Christ rise right before those still here on earth....THEN some time AFTER, the sea, death and Hades gave up all its dead...hmmmm why don't it mention anywhere else giving up its dead?

because all the Christians are already in heaven...hmmmm...

and as for the system of man cooperating with God...who said that God needed our help in anything?

we are ALL but sinful men, and who are WE to call ANYONE a "saint" worthy of a title that makes them something they are not?

God bless. [/quote]
The nature of Elijah and Enoch's thing is unclear and disputed. But what is known is that the gates of heaven (properly speaking) were opened by Christ so the holy people before Christ were in the bosom of Abraham waiting for Christ to do His thing.
And its not a theory of mine, its based on what the Church teaches. Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven to be with Jesus.

I don't know too much about the rapture and all that, but I believe at the second coming Christ will do all kinds of stuff and it doesn't really effect the fact that just souls are in heaven with Him right now and will have glorified bodies after the second coming.

And about the other thing, its not that God needs our help in anything, its that we need His help in everything. St. Paul talks about this and it seems like a pretty common Biblical idea, I don't really understand why you have a problem with it.

And of course we are all sinful, but we believe that Christ came and redeemed us not just to give imputed righteousness, but to really transform us and sanctify us. And that nothing in heaven is unclean, people in heaven are transformed in Christ and are certainly worthy of being called holy. Everything in heaven is holy, because God is holy.

Peace brother.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]The nature of Elijah and Enoch's thing is unclear and disputed. But what is known is that the gates of heaven (properly speaking) were opened by Christ so the holy people before Christ were in the bosom of Abraham waiting for Christ to do His thing.
And its not a theory of mine, its based on what the Church teaches. Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven to be with Jesus.[/quote]

where in the Bible does it say that Abraham's bosom is in heaven? and where does it say that Mary was taken into heaven?

I mean, we all pretty much agree that the NT was written as the Apostles and first century believers were dwindling...so, IF that happened, SOMEONE should have seen it and documented it, right?

[quote]I don't know too much about the rapture and all that, but I believe at the second coming Christ will do all kinds of stuff and it doesn't really effect the fact that just souls are in heaven with Him right now and will have glorified bodies after the second coming.[/quote]

we will be caught up in the twinkling of an eye, to meet Christ in the clouds
(I can look up the verses if you want)

...back to the Abraham's bosom thing. if it IS in heaven, the why will we be caught UP? and if it isn't...then what about the thief that Christ promised, "Today you will be with me in paradise..." ?

[quote]And about the other thing, its not that God needs our help in anything, its that we need His help in everything. St. Paul talks about this and it seems like a pretty common Biblical idea, I don't really understand why you have a problem with it.[/quote]

no argument from me on that...Amen, we DO need God's help in EVERYTHING!

[quote]And of course we are all sinful, but we believe that Christ came and redeemed us not just to give imputed righteousness, but to really transform us and sanctify us. And that nothing in heaven is unclean, people in heaven are transformed in Christ and are certainly worthy of being called holy. Everything in heaven is holy, because God is holy.[/quote]

Amen to all that...but I don't know where it exactly fit in...

God bless brother!

I love having convos with you!

peace.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Hazilloe' date='Apr 25 2004, 12:58 AM'] the nature of confession is that the priest must never tell a soul what he hears in the confessional under danger of excommunication.

oh dear, not excommunication.

anyway, be that as it may how can one [i]prove[/i] that a saint actually made confession?

i bet i could put on a [i]really really[/i] good act for everyone and never make it to confession, and guess what?

i'm canonized as a saint.

according to your beliefs, a saint is someone [i]known[/i] to be in heaven.

(correct me if i'm wrong).

if this is true, or even if the catholic church [i]believes[/i] i am in heaven, wouldn't that put the church in error?

doesn't the pope himself canonize saints?

the popes wrong, therefor the catholic church is wrong.

therefor, the catholic church is just as blind as everyone else. [/quote]
the Church cannot decieve, nor be decieved.

The Church cannot and never will teach falsness as truthness.

God bless.
+JMJ

ps. yes, LD is great

[ironmonk]

We believe Christ...


[b]John 14:16 [/b][color=red]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, [/color]
[b]17 [/b][color=red]the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.[/color]
[b]18 [/b][color=red]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. [/color]



[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.


[b]Luke 10:16 [/b]"[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]"


[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color=red]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/color]"
[b]19 [/b][color=red]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.[/color]"


[b]John 1:42[/b]
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "[color=red]You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas[/color]" (which is translated Peter).

Kephas is Aramaic, it means Rock. The Apostles spoke Aramaic.


The Holy Spirit guides Christ's Church. The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error. For who hears the Church hears Christ.


If you really care to learn, forget everything you've heard about the Catholic faith from people who are not Catholic. Listen to what real Catholics have to say.

Here are some real Catholic resources:
[url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url]
[url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url]
[url="http://www.Catholic-Pages.com"]http://www.Catholic-Pages.com[/url]
[url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url] <- first 600 or so years of Christian writings.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[jrndveritatis]

[quote]where in the Bible does it say that Abraham's bosom is in heaven? and where does it say that Mary was taken into heaven?

I mean, we all pretty much agree that the NT was written as the Apostles and first century believers were dwindling...so, IF that happened, SOMEONE should have seen it and documented it, right?


QUOTE 
I don't know too much about the rapture and all that, but I believe at the second coming Christ will do all kinds of stuff and it doesn't really effect the fact that just souls are in heaven with Him right now and will have glorified bodies after the second coming.



we will be caught up in the twinkling of an eye, to meet Christ in the clouds
(I can look up the verses if you want)

...back to the Abraham's bosom thing. if it IS in heaven, the why will we be caught UP? and if it isn't...then what about the thief that Christ promised, "Today you will be with me in paradise..." ?


QUOTE 
And about the other thing, its not that God needs our help in anything, its that we need His help in everything. St. Paul talks about this and it seems like a pretty common Biblical idea, I don't really understand why you have a problem with it.



no argument from me on that...Amen, we DO need God's help in EVERYTHING!


QUOTE 
And of course we are all sinful, but we believe that Christ came and redeemed us not just to give imputed righteousness, but to really transform us and sanctify us. And that nothing in heaven is unclean, people in heaven are transformed in Christ and are certainly worthy of being called holy. Everything in heaven is holy, because God is holy.



Amen to all that...but I don't know where it exactly fit in...

God bless brother!

I love having convos with you!

peace.
[/quote]

Abraham's bosom was not heaven. It was actually in the place which the Apostle's Creed calls Hell, or Hades, or the Place of the Dead, or whatever. It was not the hell of the damned. It is the place where Jesus descended after His death to rescue those just souls which died before His coming. He took them up out of this "hell" to Paradise, which was opened by His death. When I say took them up I mean their souls, not their bodies.

Jesus promised the thief he would be in Paradise that day. Therefore, heaven was opened by Christ's death, and therefore the thief is currently in heaven.

Also, where would the Assumption really fit into the NT? Not in the Gospels, they end after the Ascension. The Epistles don't deal with narrative history, they are rather teaching and preaching. The Acts of the Apostles ends before Mary's Assumption, or that could be argued. Revelation does actually mention God taking up the mother of the Savior and taking her to a special place prepared to protect her from the devil. This could be interpreted as the Assumption. But regardless, just because its not in the Bible doesn't mean its not true. The Bible never makes that claim.

God Bless.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Confession is only a part of reaching sainthood.

If you can pull off something like the stigmata (doubtful) or enrapturement in ecstacy (also doubtful) without the grace of God, then we might get confused, but you can't do those without the grace of God, in fact, in truth, no one can even with the grace of God...those are completely a gift from God and we cannot just say "okay, I want the stigmata now!"

The fact is, a saint has manifest graces and if you think you could imitate a saint without graces, then your premises would be wrong and yor whole case invalid.

The pope canonizes saints, but that's only the declaration that they are in heaven. God and the saint who accepts God's grace are the people who get the saint to heaven.

[Isidore]

[quote name='Hazilloe' date='Apr 25 2004, 12:58 AM']the nature of confession is that the priest must never tell a soul what he hears in the confessional under danger of excommunication.

[color=red](Please do not mock us)[/color]

anyway, be that as it may how can one [i]prove[/i] that a saint actually made confession?

i bet i could put on a [i]really really[/i] good act for everyone and never make it to confession, and guess what?

i'm canonized as a saint.

according to your beliefs, a saint is someone [i]known[/i] to be in heaven.

(correct me if i'm wrong).

if this is true, or even if the catholic church [i]believes[/i] i am in heaven, wouldn't that put the church in error?

doesn't the pope himself canonize saints?

the popes wrong, therefor the catholic church is wrong.

therefor, the catholic church is just as blind as everyone else.[/quote]
Greetings,

The premise of your questions is whether or not a Saint had gone to confession during their life. The many points brought up in this thread clearly shows that becoming a Saint is much more complicated than that.

The answer to your question in general is that a Saint does not have to go to confession. Saints are presumed to be in heaven because their life showed that they followed the word of the Lord. Their life proved that they performed the acts of a Christian, and lived their life as Jesus spelled out for us in the Beatitudes from the book of Mathew....

The text of St. Matthew runs as follows:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

The first Saints were actually Martyrs, those who gave up their life for their belief in Jesus Christ. They were fed to the lions, yet did not renounce their faith to save their lives. Anyone who sacrifices themselves for the word of the Lord are in fact Blessed, since they had shown the supreme proof of love by giving their lives for Christ; by their sufferings, they had attained eternal life and were indefectibly united to Christ, the Head of the Mystical Body. These reasons induced the Christians, still oppressed by persecution, to invoke the intercession of the martyrs. They begged them to intercede before God to obtain for the faithful on earth the grace to imitate the martyrs in the unquestioning and complete profession of faith [1 Tim. 2:1-5, Phil. 3:17] . They did not have to be proven to have gone to confession.

So your premise is incorrect.

I think you are using cofession as a way to disprove the entire idea of Sainthood. So one must go a little further in understanding of what Sainthood means. Toward the end of the great Roman persecutions, this veneration of Saints, which had been reserved to martyrs, was extended to those who, even without dying for the faith, had nonetheless defended it and suffered for it, confessors of the faith (confessores fidei). Within a short time, this same veneration was extended to those who had been outstanding for their exemplary Christian life, especially in austerity and penitence, as well as to those who excelled in Catholic doctrine (doctors of the Church), in apostolic zeal (bishops and missionaries), or in charity and the evangelical spirit .

The first step in the canonization proccess is stil that of Beatification, showing through the prospective Saint's life that they lived as Jesus commanded us. The person in question fits whithin the framework of those that Jesus himself said were blessed. Basically if they lived their life as Jesus told us, then they in fact are blessed, because Jesus does not lie. The church simply put in place a process to identify and verify that these individuals did in fact live their life in accordance with Jesus teachings. Through process of Beatification, the life of the person is catalogued for review and scrutiny. At this point, by Jesus word and the life and deeds of the candidate they are in fact in heaven. Again, we know this not because of the church, but because Jesus told us on the mound. That those who are blessed will be in heaven.

After Beatification, there is still more to the process. Before someone is elevated to the position of Sainthood, there needs to be proof, that not only are they in Heaven; there needs to be proof that the person can in fact assist from Heaven. This is where miracles come into play.Again, it must be emphasized here that the Pope does not allow someone into Heaven, or deny anyones entry into Heaven. The Pope through investigation, and documentation simply has shown that the person meets all of the criteria set by Jesus. to be worthy of Beatification. So by Jesus' words the person is in fact in Heaven. So if one were to pray for that persons intercession concerning some matter, the Beatified could in fact hear and intercede.

So after Beatification there needs to be proof that someone had prayed to the Beatified person for intercession, and the Beatified in question did in fact intercede on behalf of the person praying. This is where miracles come in.

At this point, most Protestants will bring up our worship of the Saints. So let's look at what Catholics really believe. Catholic Christians believe that as we can ask a fellow Christian to pray for us, we should be able to ask prayers from the Saints already united to the Lord in heaven. If the prayers of certain Christians here on earth seem to possess special power because of their great faith witness or holiness, how much more powerful and effective might not the prayers of those of the communion of Saints in heaven who are fully united to God be?

[b]And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Revelation 8:3-4)[/b]

Thus those saints who are angels have a role in presenting our prayers to God in an intercessory manner. (Angels are also saints, as indicated by the fact that the Bible applies the Hebrew word for saint/holy one -- qaddiysh -- to them, cf. Daniel 4:13, 23, 8:13. Thus we speak of St. Michael the Archangel, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, etc.).

Since the Ascension of Christ, when Jesus took the Old Testament saints from sheol to heaven, large numbers of humans saints have also been in heaven, and Revelation indicates they also present our prayers to God:

[b]"And when he [the Lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Revelation 5:8).[/b]

The twenty-four elders represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward).

So we in fact do not worship the Saints, we pray to the Saints for their help in delivering our prayers to God, because they are there with God. Not because the Pope says, but because the Bible says.

So the Pope does not allow, or grant a Saint a place in Heaven. The Pope merely states officially that by the proof afforded us through the life works of the individual in question, that they are in fact worthy of Beatification. Then by their acts after their death, that they are worthy of Sainthood. Not by the Popes rules, but by the word of our lord.

So Sainthood, is simply the presumption that the person lived a good enough life to get to heaven. As such we as Catholics can pray to God, asking these Saints to assist us, plea our case to God. Because by God's words, these people who lived their life as God commanded, are in Heaven.

Can the Pope be wrong? Sure, but it is highly unlikely. That is where infallibillity comes in to play. In this instance, infallibility simply means that if a Pope says someone is in heaven, we as Catholics cannot be held liable, if for instance the person is not in Heaven. Infallibillity here does not mean that because the Pope grants the title of Sainthood on an individual, they are brought into heaven. So basically it is possible that centiuries of study, and of prayer and thought could be wrong. That does not harm us as believers.

Let us sum this up....

Beatification, the first step in the Sainthood process comes from Jesus.

Sainthood is a designation that let's us as Catholics know that the Saint is in Heaven through the proof in the acts performed during their life and after their death.

All of this comes from the Bible, not the Pope.

Confession does not really matter.

Finally, prayer to the Saints is taught to us in the Bible.

[CreepyCrawler]

ooohh... isidore that was great! i even learned something thanks