Lil Red Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 btw, i'm not being snarky - just that i have a different perspective on time as a parent, than you do as a single person. i didn't understand (again)...i thought (wrongly) you meant chanting each reading in Latin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306820682' post='2248060'] btw, i'm not being snarky - just that i have a different perspective on time as a parent, than you do as a single person. i didn't understand (again)...i thought (wrongly) you meant chanting each reading in Latin. [/quote] I know you're not. I like having discussions like this, where everyone is respectful. It's no secret of course that I prefer the Usus Antiquior to the Novus Ordo, as is my right. With that perspective I do think it would be the ideal that all the readings were chanted in Latin by a cleric. However, in the Novus Ordo as far as I know that's not a possibility, so with the mindset of small steps towards the goal, I think having the priest chant the Gospel in Latin then re-read it in English would be a great start. However it occurs to me that in comparing the Liturgy of the Word in the new Mass versus the more ancient Mass, we're looking at two very different things. The Liturgy of the Word in the T.L.M. is not primarily directed towards the congregation. It is chanted (in a High Mass) by the priest at the altar facing the altar/tabernacle/crucifix. It's an act of worship more than it's an instruction of the faithful. The instruction happens in the homily, which is why it makes sense of the readings to be done then, quickly, in English. For the purposes of worship that isn't strictly required. In the Novus Ordo though, we see the Gospel intended to be directed more towards the congregation than as an act of worship. The priest moves well away from the altar, faces the people, and speaks (not chants) in the vernacular. We seem to have forgotten at the moment the aspect of the Liturgy of the Word that is offered to God by the priest acting in place of Christ. Instead it is offered to the congregation by the priest who acts as a presider, the head of an assembly of equals. I'm on a tangent though; we're not really discussing the differences in the Liturgy of the Word between both Masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Personally, I hate it when lay people talk about liturgy done this way versus that way etc....ugh. But, that's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1306843405' post='2248100'] Personally, I hate it when lay people talk about liturgy done this way versus that way [i][b][u]etc....[/u][/b][/i]ugh. But, that's my opinion. [/quote] Hey, nice incorporation of Latin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 tl;dr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306820682' post='2248060'] btw, i'm not being snarky - just that i have a different perspective on time as a parent, than you do as a single person. i didn't understand (again)...i thought (wrongly) you meant chanting each reading in Latin. [/quote] I'm with you. I spent a large majority of Mass on Sunday carting my 2 year old in and out of our pew to pace the back and for disciplinary measures because he was completely rotten. Our pastor (while very good) is prone to very long homilies. Were I single or attending Mass without my kids I wouldn't bat an eyelash, but wrestling a monster and dealing with three others chorusing "I have to go to the bathroom! I need a drink! She poked me! He kicked me!" (so on and so forth) even an "extra" ten minutes can be brutal and detrimental to my sanity and ability to focus and try and remain in a state where I am most receptive to everything going on on the altar. All that is aside from the time I spend instructing them and trying to focus their attention on Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1306855251' post='2248166'] I'm with you. I spent a large majority of Mass on Sunday carting my 2 year old in and out of our pew to pace the back and for disciplinary measures because he was completely rotten. Our pastor (while very good) is prone to very long homilies. Were I single or attending Mass without my kids I wouldn't bat an eyelash, but wrestling a monster and dealing with three others chorusing "I have to go to the bathroom! I need a drink! She poked me! He kicked me!" (so on and so forth) even an "extra" ten minutes can be brutal and detrimental to my sanity and ability to focus and try and remain in a state where I am most receptive to everything going on on the altar. All that is aside from the time I spend instructing them and trying to focus their attention on Jesus. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306808870' post='2247945'] I like the common practice in the usus antiquior in which the readings are first chanted, then read in the vernacular in the homily. It would certainly be an aspect of organic development for the vernacular re-reading to be incorporated in the Liturgy of the Word itself, and depending on how the Holy Ghost would operate, it may in time even replace the Latin. However, I do hope the chanted aspect would be retained. [/quote] I understand the chanting of the Psalms, but I am having a hard time visioning chanting the readings. Help me out here. What value does chanting add to text that is designed to be read? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1306855251' post='2248166'] I'm with you. I spent a large majority of Mass on Sunday carting my 2 year old in and out of our pew to pace the back and for disciplinary measures because he was completely rotten. Our pastor (while very good) is prone to very long homilies. Were I single or attending Mass without my kids I wouldn't bat an eyelash, but wrestling a monster and dealing with three others chorusing "I have to go to the bathroom! I need a drink! She poked me! He kicked me!" (so on and so forth) even an "extra" ten minutes can be brutal and detrimental to my sanity and ability to focus and try and remain in a state where I am most receptive to everything going on on the altar. All that is aside from the time I spend instructing them and trying to focus their attention on Jesus. [/quote] Then after mass you need a drink! However, all I need to do is tell my 4 year old no Star Wars Legos today if not good in mass and he is quiet and still. Of course, he asks me every 5 minutes if he is being good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Lil Red, as a single person, I have to agree with you anyway. To me, chanting the readings in Latin and then re-reading them in English is pretty pointless. If we understand the Latin, great, but then there's no reason to read them again in English, but if we don't understand the Latin, why go through the motions just for the sake of having chant in Latin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1306865159' post='2248225'] I understand the chanting of the Psalms, but I am having a hard time visioning chanting the readings. Help me out here. What value does chanting add to text that is designed to be read? [/quote] Well the trouble is that you're making the assumption that they're designed to be read. Strictly speaking, the Mass is an act of worship, so in that sense, in the EF at least, the Gospel and epistles, etc., are intended as acts of worship first. As I said earlier, directed towards God on behalf of the congregation by the alter Christus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shover Robot Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306854602' post='2248162'] tl;dr [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I'm a huge advocate of using Latin for all of the laity responses. Chant would even be better. It speaks to the universality of the church (ie- I could attend mass in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc, and always know the Latin responses, and know what they mean). Not to mention, putting us in perfect union with all of the saints and angels in heaven, present there in the mass with us. If this was made the norm, then everybody would know the parts and would know what the Latin meant. Latin also separates the heavenly from the mundane--and would give those responses a more transcendent quality. With all that said, I don't see how chanting the readings in Latin would make it better--because I think being able to understand the reading is important. And I don't think reading the readings twice is in the rubrics. Of course, I could just be making this point because I love saying IT'S NOT IN THE RUBRICS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306867487' post='2248240'] Well the trouble is that you're making the assumption that they're designed to be read. Strictly speaking, the Mass is an act of worship, so in that sense, in the EF at least, the Gospel and epistles, etc., are intended as acts of worship first. As I said earlier, directed towards God on behalf of the congregation by the alter Christus. [/quote] Well why did you suggest that they be read again then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306868108' post='2248244'] I'm a huge advocate of using Latin for all of the laity responses. Chant would even be better. It speaks to the universality of the church (ie- I could attend mass in Spain, Italy, Germany, etc, and always know the Latin responses, and know what they mean). Not to mention, putting us in perfect union with all of the saints and angels in heaven, present there in the mass with us. If this was made the norm, then everybody would know the parts and would know what the Latin meant. Latin also separates the heavenly from the mundane--and would give those responses a more transcendent quality. With all that said, I don't see how chanting the readings in Latin would make it better--because I think being able to understand the reading is important. And I don't think reading the readings twice is in the rubrics. Of course, I could just be making this point because I love saying IT'S NOT IN THE RUBRICS! [/quote] [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306868348' post='2248246'] Well why did you suggest that they be read again then? [/quote] As part of the homily. Please make that distinction. It is an important one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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