MithLuin Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 No idea. I mean, it's not like people should be carrying around vials of poison or rat killer or acid or something on the altar. A fly falling in the chalice is a more likely scenario, and perhaps he just included the host for completeness sake? I mean, I guess it goes back to the story of St. John the Apostle, and the snake in the poisoned goblet. But then again....stranger things have happened, and maybe there was a case of something poisonous being a problem during the consecration. There is [url=http://povcrystal.blogspot.com/2010/02/daeth-by-communion-wafer.html]at least one person[/url] who thinks Descartes was poisoned to death by a communion wafer. Don't know what the basis of that is...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholictothecore Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Quick question from someone who does not nearly know as much as he'd like to pretend; would the consecration even occur outside of the chalice or chalices? I thought it had to be gold or gold-lined silver.... Another quick question. I thought the wine only got consecrated if placed on the corporal? So, if the cruet is on the altar, but off to the side, it's fine. It has to be on the corporal, not just on the altar, I'm...rather certain of that. Sorry, very tired and attempting to think. Thoughts not necessarily gelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Catholictothecore' timestamp='1306905160' post='2248577'] Quick question from someone who does not nearly know as much as he'd like to pretend; would the consecration even occur outside of the chalice or chalices? I thought it had to be gold or gold-lined silver.... Another quick question. I thought the wine only got consecrated if placed on the corporal? So, if the cruet is on the altar, but off to the side, it's fine. It has to be on the corporal, not just on the altar, I'm...rather certain of that. Sorry, very tired and attempting to think. Thoughts not necessarily gelling. [/quote] With regards to the precious metal lining, I know the presence of gold and/or silver is merely necessary for licitness, not validity, so obviously it's possible for consecration to occur outside of a chalice lined with precious metal (since it would be still valid, though very illicit with simple glass or stone or clay vessels). The rest is beyond my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Catholictothecore' timestamp='1306905160' post='2248577'] Quick question from someone who does not nearly know as much as he'd like to pretend; would the consecration even occur outside of the chalice or chalices? I thought it had to be gold or gold-lined silver.... Another quick question. I thought the wine only got consecrated if placed on the corporal? So, if the cruet is on the altar, but off to the side, it's fine. It has to be on the corporal, not just on the altar, I'm...rather certain of that. Sorry, very tired and attempting to think. Thoughts not necessarily gelling. [/quote] Regarding your second question: It's about intention. Does the priest [i]intend[/i] to consecrate something that is not placed on the corporal? Consider stadium Masses or other large Masses... hosts (and chalices, if for some ungodly reason they're distributing under both species at such a large Mass) ought to be on placed on corporals on tables... but the corporal is not essential to the consecration. If the priest intends to consecrate all of the hosts present, then the consecration is valid. I think Fr. Z has a post about this... let me see if I can find it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/04/quaeritur-of-the-precious-blood-wine-water-and-dilution/"]Here is a post about the scenario with a wine cruet left unintentionally on the altar.[/url] An exerpt: [quote]Second, the priest has to have an intention to consecrate something, even a moral intention. [b] Generally [/b]this intention is established by placing the elements to be consecrated on the corporal.[/quote] I'd think it's possible to have the intention to consecrate without having the elements places on the corporal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
let_go_let_God Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [i]Playing Devils Advocate[/i] How are we to judge the difference between intentions? If a cruet of wine is left on the altar should it still be considered and treated as if it had been Consecrated? God bless- LGLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholictothecore Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Fair point, but this does brings up the very vague question of why a priest would intend to consecrate wine still in the cruet and off to the side of the altar, which wouldn't even have been blessed during the opening parts of the Eucharistic prayer, come to think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='let_go_let_God' timestamp='1306941157' post='2248684'] [i]Playing Devils Advocate[/i] How are we to judge the difference between intentions? If a cruet of wine is left on the altar should it still be considered and treated as if it had been Consecrated? God bless- LGLG [/quote] very simple in the case I witnessed. It was left in the cruet/decanter during the consecration. After that it was distributed among the chalices then to the EHMCs for communion. Either it was Consecrated on the altar, or it happened while the EHMCs took their spots....highly doubt it was the latter..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
let_go_let_God Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1306945799' post='2248735'] very simple in the case I witnessed. It was left in the cruet/decanter during the consecration. After that it was distributed among the chalices then to the EHMCs for communion. Either it was Consecrated on the altar, or it happened while the EHMCs took their spots....highly doubt it was the latter..... [/quote] [i]Devil's Advocate[/i] I agree, in that case the priest's intent was to have it Consecrated in the cruet/decanter. What happens when a priest or negligent server forgets to remove it from the altar. There is a direct reason that it is insisted on that the cruet/decanter is removed. It must be that regardless of shape, form and substance of container, provided that the substance of the wine is adequate the accidentals will change. God bless- LGLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='let_go_let_God' timestamp='1306956969' post='2248863'] [i]Devil's Advocate[/i] What happens when a priest or negligent server forgets to remove it from the altar. There is a direct reason that it is insisted on that the cruet/decanter is removed. It must be that regardless of shape, form and substance of container, provided that the substance of the wine is adequate the accidentals will change. God bless- LGLG [/quote] I think in that scenario it is clear that it is NOT the priest's intention to consecrate the wine in the cruet. He had meant for it to be removed by the server. Or simply forgot to remove it. In this case, it seems clear that he using the corporal as the ordinary means of intention. So he has placed the intended elements for consecration on the corporal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I agree. Sacraments are not magic. You can't accidentally consecrate wine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1306965512' post='2248922'] I think in that scenario it is clear that it is NOT the priest's intention to consecrate the wine in the cruet. He had meant for it to be removed by the server. Or simply forgot to remove it. In this case, it seems clear that he using the corporal as the ordinary means of intention. So he has placed the intended elements for consecration on the corporal. [/quote] nope nope nope. it it were empty or partially filled, I could go with that, but it was not. Except for what he poured into his chalice, ALL the wine remained in the decanter. After the consecration he then poured it into the remaining 4 chalices for distribution. After talking with the other acolytes, it turns out he did this at ALL the Masses he presided over - at least 3. This was not an accident - it was intentional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totus Tuus Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 That was what they did every Sunday at a church I went to as a kid... I guess I forgot about it until now. It does seem a little odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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