sixpence Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306956685' post='2248854'] By a funny coincidence, an Eastern Orthodox bishop, Callistos Ware, explains it in the same way I understand it. "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say. [/quote] this is how I've understood it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Debra, a good place to start would be the Catechism, its available in several places online, here: [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/[/url] [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm[/url] I Edited June 2, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306963506' post='2248913'] I assume that most Catholics know what a dogma is, or at least ask at the outset if they do not. I have not called you a heretic, as far as I remember. I said you're in serious danger of heresy, which you are if you continue to deny solemn definitions such as extra ecclesiam nulla salus, infallibility, etc.. As I said, I must seriously recommend a lot of study and prayer. I see that you simply don't understand what we're talking about. That's fine, but it's dangerous too. You must guard yourself against error- the snares of the devil. Everybody needs to learn in order to understand these things, but simply rejecting them out of hand because you don't understand them is a recipe for disaster. Does it matter if he leaves the Church, if you don't believe "extra ecclesiam nulla salus"? I will say nothing more in this topic. These subjects are critical. They should be studied in a spirit of faith and in continuity with our Church's Tradition. It is our responsibility as Catholics to do our best to understand these things so that we can help those weaker in their faith to come to see the Truth, and so that we might also protect them from the popular errors of our age. [/quote] I am more concerned with loving than obeying all the rules and I have no desire to know a lot of things. The only One I want to know is our Lord, The Blessed Mother, the angels and saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307040612' post='2249235'] I am more concerned with loving than obeying all the rules and I have no desire to know a lot of things. The only One I want to know is our Lord, The Blessed Mother, the angels and saints. [/quote] How does obeying the Church exclude loving? As for your lack of desire, sorry to hear that, I've personally found that the best way to knowing God (and Mary, the saints, etc) is through studying and learning my Faith in the Catholic Church. Edited June 2, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307040612' post='2249235'] I am more concerned with loving than obeying all the rules and I have no desire to know a lot of things. The only One I want to know is our Lord, The Blessed Mother, the angels and saints. [/quote] Being with Our Lord is the target, but the road to salvation is full of treachery, traps and ambushes, the rules as you put it, help us negotiate these obstacles. Don't eschew the "rules" as superflous or unecessary, Christ established his Church for a reason, the Church is a beacon in the dark, set up by the Lord to keeps us safe. In one of your prior posts it seems as if you have given up on the Church. You could do that, but it would be like telling Our Lord that he wasted his time establishing his Church. Yes, the Church is full of jerks, incompetents and morons, but it also full of wonderful and holy people. Don't turn your back on the Church, for She hasn't turned her back on you, you just saw the ugly side, you need to focus on the beautiful side. Edited June 2, 2011 by Maximilianus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 [quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1307042567' post='2249253'] Being with Our Lord is the target, but the road to salvation is full of treachery, traps and ambushes, the rules as you put it, help us negotiate these obstacles. Don't eschew the "rules" as superflous or unecessary, Christ established His Church for a reason, the Church is a beacon in the dark, set up by the Lord to keeps us safe. In one of your prior posts it seems as if you have given up on the Church. You could do that, but it would be like telling Our Lord that he wasted his time establishing His Church. Yes, the Church is full of jerks, incompetents and morons, but it also full of wonderful and holy people. Don't turn your back on the Church, for She hasn't turned her back on you, you just saw the ugly side, you need to focus on the beautiful side. [/quote] Gosh i like this much better then what i said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sistersintigo Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306956685' post='2248854'] By a funny coincidence, an Eastern Orthodox bishop, Callistos Ware, explains it in the same way I understand it. "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say. [/quote] Sometimes I feel unhappy with Augustine's statements, but with this one, I fall right in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 [quote name='sistersintigo' timestamp='1307046444' post='2249289'] Sometimes I feel unhappy with Augustine's statements, but with this one, I fall right in line. [/quote] Augustine of course, while a very important figure in the Church, is not perfect in every single aspect. There is also, of course, room to re-interpret as long as it's within the bounds of Tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307037450' post='2249224'] Debra, a good place to start would be the Catechism, its available in several places online, here: [url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/[/url] [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm[/url] I [/quote] Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307065574' post='2249356'] Thank you. [/quote] I was wondering where to start but I am looking at the table of contents. I am very sorry for alarming everyone. I am not leaving the Catholic Church. God wants me to stay. And I will obey Him. Please understand, that in the past, I have been severely burned by churches. I couldn't tolerate being without our Lord's Body and Blood. And this week I hope I hope I hope to get to Mass. I need it so badly. I am going to buy a bus ticket if this thing with my rides doesn't work out so that can get to Mass every week. Please understand, too, that through the years, I have been doing a lot of sifting out of junk and finding the good stuff. The Catholic Church is the best thing that ever happened to me and maybe in the future I will understand better. It might be a good idea to talk to my parish priest and even see if I can get permission to go to a catechism class. Even if it is with small children I don't care. I just need to learn more about my faith and I know that. Please don't Burn me more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1307065574' post='2249356'] Thank you. [/quote] I was wondering where to start but I am looking at the table of contents. I am very sorry for alarming everyone. I am not leaving the Catholic Church. God wants me to stay. And I will obey Him. Please understand, that in the past, I have been severely burned by churches. I couldn't tolerate being without our Lord's Body and Blood. And this week I hope I hope I hope to get to Mass. I need it so badly. I am going to buy a bus ticket if this thing with my rides doesn't work out so that can get to Mass every week. Please understand, too, that through the years, I have been doing a lot of sifting out of junk and finding the good stuff. The Catholic Church is the best thing that ever happened to me and maybe in the future I will understand better. It might be a good idea to talk to my parish priest and even see if I can get permission to go to a catechism class. Even if it is with small children I don't care. I just need to learn more about my faith and I know that. Please don't Burn me more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306908155' post='2248606'] I bit my tongue and decided not to reference Trent, but all I'll say is that some people could interpret this as supporting sola fide. [/quote] I just read what sola fide is about. We are saved by faith in Christ but must show our salvation by our works. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvationl That is a gift of Grace. But works cannot be excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307042802' post='2249254'] Gosh i like this much better then what i said [/quote] Thank you for this. This touches my heart and I don't feel judged reading this. I appreicate what you said. You are right. I saw a lot of Christians act like the devil and then say they believed in Jesus. Right. Well didn't Jesus say we are to love? Seems like my Bible says that. I saw a lot of hypocrites. I was kicked out of a church, with a lot of others, simply because the pastor did not like us. He couldn't find any reasons for doing this so he made them up. Other churches I was simply ignored. Oh well I need to move on from there and examine my faith. I don't want to examine too closely for fear that I will become too involved in the "letter of the law" but learning doesn't hurt. I received no formation coming into the Church and I feel this huge lack. I think I will talk to our priest and see if what he suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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