Debra Little Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306954781' post='2248797'] define what you mean by 'criticize.' [/quote] That is right. Jesus told them, "i would rather that you had mercy and justice and love." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1306954779' post='2248796'] I#ll introduce you to my family in heaven one day [/quote] It's been solemnly defined by the Church. If anyone is saved, it is through the Church. One cannot be Catholic and hold otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306954574' post='2248793'] There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. [/quote] That is not true. There are many wonderful Christians who love our Lord who will be in heaven and they are not Catholic. I think we will be surprised at some of the people we see in heaven and be even more surprised at the some of them who won't be there. No one who does't love can be in heaven. No one aside from Jesus Christ will be able to save us. The Church in general has failed me immensely, the Catholic Church more than other other. Does no one notice how bad the Church is right now? One doesn't have to be blind to see this. But I imagine to those who have the luxury and the blessing of attending Mass wherever they like don't see this. They forget the rest of us who find it impossible to even there. Do not Judge![quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306954574' post='2248793'] There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. [/quote] If I were you I'd be more concerned with what God thinks than a human hierarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1306955762' post='2248821'] If I were you I'd be more concerned with what God thinks than a human hierarchy. [/quote] Exactly. The Church is made up of people. Its rules are, ultimately, made by people. I do not deny they are inspired by God, but as people they are [i]not [/i]God. I know we can all find the evidence we choose to, and that the Scriptures can be manipulated to say what people want them to, but I believe firmly in John3:16 God loved the world so much that he gave his onlt son, so that [i]whosoever believes in him[/i] shall not perish, but have eternal life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 umm, i think you'd better read up on what the Church teaches then. Nihil is not out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1306955762' post='2248821'] That is not true. There are many wonderful Christians who love our Lord who will be in heaven and they are not Catholic. [/quote] [i]Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.[/i] Fourth Lateran Council. This is binding upon all Catholics.[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306956286' post='2248844'] umm, i think you'd better read up on what the Church teaches then. Nihil is not out of line. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1306955762' post='2248821'] That is not true. There are many wonderful Christians who love our Lord who will be in heaven and they are not Catholic. I think we will be surprised at some of the people we see in heaven and be even more surprised at the some of them who won't be there. No one who does't love can be in heaven. No one aside from Jesus Christ will be able to save us. The Church in general has failed me immensely, the Catholic Church more than other other. Does no one notice how bad the Church is right now? One doesn't have to be blind to see this. But I imagine to those who have the luxury and the blessing of attending Mass wherever they like don't see this. They forget the rest of us who find it impossible to even there. Do not Judge! If I were you I'd be more concerned with what God thinks than a human hierarchy. [/quote] [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306956286' post='2248844'] umm, i think you'd better read up on what the Church teaches then. Nihil is not out of line. [/quote] [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1306956346' post='2248846'] [i]Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.[/i] Fourth Lateran Council. This is binding upon all Catholics. [/quote] Thank you. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 i'm trying to remember how it was explained to me God is not bound by the Sacraments to provide His graces to us. But for us, as Catholics, the surest way to receive graces from God (that ultimately [hopefully] get us to heaven) is by the Sacraments, through the Catholic Church. Why wouldn't you make available to yourself all the help you can get to get to heaven? is that helpful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 By a funny coincidence, an Eastern Orthodox bishop, Callistos Ware, explains it in the same way I understand it. "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306956624' post='2248853'] i'm trying to remember how it was explained to me God is not bound by the Sacraments to provide His graces to us. But for us, as Catholics, the surest way to receive graces from God (that ultimately [hopefully] get us to heaven) is by the Sacraments, through the Catholic Church. Why wouldn't you make available to yourself all the help you can get to get to heaven? is that helpful? [/quote] That I can accept 100%. I truely believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, that is why as a young adult I left the church I was brought up in and converted. What I cannot, simply cannot believe is that other Christians, other people who devote their whole lives to God's service, are damned just because the Church says so. Thats God's decision, and he says that believing in him is a way to be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 However, for the purposes of our own salvation, we are required to hold that the Church is necessary, and since we are aware of that, to act or teach otherwise is a very grave sin. If one who was not visibly within the Church is saved, it was by extraordinary means, and so we must rely on the surest path to salvation that is the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1306956853' post='2248859'] That I can accept 100%. I truely believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church, that is why as a young adult I left the church I was brought up in and converted. What I cannot, simply cannot believe is that other Christians, other people who devote their whole lives to God's service, [b]are damned just because the Church says so[/b]. Thats God's decision, and he says that believing in him is a way to be saved. [/quote] that's not what we're saying. read what nihil wrote, specifically this part: [b]Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12)[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Debra and Cecilia: do you believe that dogma is infallible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 faith and Debra, i would add that this teaching, for me, was really hard to understand for the longest time. please pray about it, and really consider what we are actually saying. if you don't understand right away, that's alright. just keep praying about it and trying to assent to the teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306956942' post='2248862'] Debra and Cecilia: do you believe that dogma is infallible? [/quote] No. Only God is infallible. The holy father is the authority God has chosen to lead the Church but he is a human being, subject to all the frailties of human nature. I believe the Catholic Church is the true Church or I wouldn't have converted. I do not believe in the power of any Document or Church to save me. Only Jesus Christ cans save. Only faith in His name will save. Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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