Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 OK phatpeeps. I got the answer from my pastor on this whole bruhaha *horse whinny* I LOVE my pastor! He gets right to the crux of everything when someone bothers to ask. His quote:" Rome likes vagueness. Americans do not." It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. I for one am happy for this, so I don't have lil old ladies making angry faces at me again...for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308623332' post='2256634'] OK phatpeeps. I got the answer from my pastor on this whole bruhaha *horse whinny* I LOVE my pastor! He gets right to the crux of everything when someone bothers to ask. His quote:" Rome likes vagueness. Americans do not." It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. I for one am happy for this, so I don't have lil old ladies making angry faces at me again...for now. [/quote] And I disagree with your pastor. He's just wrong in this instance. I've given a clear explanation which was promptly ignored. My explanation is at odds with your pastor's. My explanation uses the documentation of the Church. Show that to him and see what he says....btw, I'm an installed acolyte too, so you and I, we're on even footing, canonically. Wiping of the chalice is part of the purification process and therefore it is not allowed for anyone who is not at the very least an installed acolyte. The citations for my posts are listed above and my reasoning is sound. Edited June 21, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308623332' post='2256634'] OK phatpeeps. I got the answer from my pastor on this whole bruhaha *horse whinny* I LOVE my pastor! He gets right to the crux of everything when someone bothers to ask. His quote:" Rome likes vagueness. Americans do not." It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. I for one am happy for this, so I don't have lil old ladies making angry faces at me again...for now. [/quote] I'm gonna agree with Camster on this. The wiping of the Sacred Vessels should only be done with a purificator. That being the case, it doesn't matter if wiping and purifying are a part of the same process or two different ones. Its the proper cloth to use. And only the priest, deacon or Groo (acolyte) should be using the purificator. This reminds me of a time when i had no choice but to break this rule. I was playing for mass at a hospital and I found the priest pouring out the Sacred Blood down the sink in the back (not a Sacrarium) so I offered to take over for him since he was always in a hurry. I knew I wasn't supposed to do it but I thought it was better than Christ being dumped in a sewer edit to add: I also think its respectful and appropriate for a boy to talk to the priest on a day other than he is assisting as an altar server about this very topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306426290' post='2246226'] Ummm...[b]dUSt you're wrong[/b]...he is not entitled to that function. The purifying of vessels is [u]not allowed[/u] for laymen. They [b]cannot[/b] purify. The most an altar server can do is transport the ALREADY purified vessel to the credence, if so determined. The article I cite is clear. The letter from Bishop Skylstad is clear. The GIRM #163 is even clearer. Redemptoris Sacramentum is clear. The Church is clear. Laymen [b]cannot[/b] purify. [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf"]source[/url] (cf. #4) [url="http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html"]source[/url] (cf. #119) [/quote] Actually Cam, what you quoted supports my point and that of my Pastor. Both documents state that an EMHC cannot assist in the purification of the vessels. This we ALL agree on. The point of confoosion was whether wiping is part of purifying. As stated in the GIRM sections I quoted earlier, it is not. Hence there is no issue with an EMHC or altar server wiping the vessels AFTER they have been purified. Also you boo-booed above when you said "The purifying of vessels is not allowed for laymen." Acolytes are laymen. Acolytes may purify. Hence some laymen can purify the vessels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308627113' post='2256656'] And only the priest, deacon or Groo (acolyte) should be using the purificator. [/quote] Got any references to back this up? Honestly curious. Would search myself, but am multitasking on getting 10 computers refurbed for computer camp and writing 25 mini-lessons on Catholic Basics for Confirmation this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308627557' post='2256658'] Got any references to back this up? Honestly curious. Would search myself, but am multitasking on getting 10 computers refurbed for computer camp and writing 25 mini-lessons on Catholic Basics for Confirmation this year. [/quote] No problem Groo [quote]Upon returning to the altar, the priest collects any fragments that may remain. Then, standing at the altar or at the credence table, he purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice then purifies the chalice, saying quietly, [i]Quod ore sumpsimus (Lord, may I receive)[/i], and dries the chalice with a purificator. [/quote] That's from 163 of the GIRM. Since the GIRM is prescriptive (it tells us what is allowed) vs proscriptive (it tells us what we can't do) we can safely assume that ONLY a purificator can be used to wipe the Chalice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308627419' post='2256657'] Actually Cam, what you quoted supports my point and that of my Pastor. Both documents state that an EMHC cannot assist in the purification of the vessels. This we ALL agree on. The point of confoosion was whether wiping is part of purifying. As stated in the GIRM sections I quoted earlier, it is not. Hence there is no issue with an EMHC or altar server wiping the vessels AFTER they have been purified. Also you boo-booed above when you said "The purifying of vessels is not allowed for laymen." Acolytes are laymen. Acolytes may purify. Hence some laymen can purify the vessels. [/quote] Well, Groo...you're now changing the conditions of the argument aren't you. We were talking about the boy assisting the priest by finishing the purification process, but now all of a sudden we're talking about wiping out a chalice once it is has been properly purified (which includes wiping out the cup after the ablutions have been poured and consumed). There is no mention of the action being after Mass in the sacristy yadda, yadda, yadda.... As for the acolytes are laymen thing....you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308628024' post='2256662'] No problem Groo That's from 163 of the GIRM. [/quote] Pretty sure you stole that one from me....lulz!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 gah! must make myself clearer... I actually was asking where it said that only clergy + acolytes can touch a purificator. I know the sacristan can as well, since they set out all the linens and vessels. I would think the altar servers could too since they bring the vessels and cloths from the credence table to the altar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308628153' post='2256664'] Well, Groo...you're now changing the conditions of the argument aren't you. We were talking about the boy assisting the priest by finishing the purification process, but now all of a sudden we're talking about wiping out a chalice once it is has been properly purified [/quote] nah that was changed a long time ago in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1308628250' post='2256666'] gah! must make myself clearer... I actually was asking where it said that only clergy + acolytes can touch a purificator. I know the sacristan can as well, since they set out all the linens and vessels. I would think the altar servers could too since they bring the vessels and cloths from the credence table to the altar.... [/quote] Well ok Anybody can touch a cleaned purificator. Only clergy or acolytes can use one. Appropriate people (select laypersons or nuns) can wash the linens. Does that sound reasonable? and upon further reflection, I'm going to retract my statement about the altar server talking to the priest. I think the parents should talk to the priest and get the issue resolved properly. The boy shouldn't have to be in the position to correct an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308629968' post='2256683'] and upon further reflection, I'm going to retract my statement about the altar server talking to the priest. I think the parents should talk to the priest and get the issue resolved properly. The boy shouldn't have to be in the position to correct an adult. [/quote] Definitely. When I was younger I'd have been terrified to be put in such a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luigi Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [b]Post #1 - The Original Question [/b] ... from Galatians My son is an altar server. At Daily Mass he was asked by the priest to dry the vessels after the priest purified them. Is this allowed? Thanks! [b]Post #13 - Expert Opinion[/b] ... from Galatians The priest (our pastor) is a Canon Lawyer, as is my Spiritual Director. I trust the latter implicitly and he tells me that as long as my son does not purify them in the sense of consuming what is left of the sacred species, there is no problem with him just drying the sacred vessels. I've just sent an e-mail to another solid priest who is a Canon Lawyer as well. I know him well enough that even if he tells me it's technically ok, he'll say that he doesn't like it. ... [/quote] [b]Post #43 - Talking to the Priest[/b] ... from Galatians He's [the son] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with... [b]Post #76 - Another County Heard From [/b] ... from Groo the Wanderer, quoting his pastor It is fine for the the EMHCs to wipe/dry the Sacred Vessels after the Acolyte has purified them. Until the Magisterium rules otherwise or hands down a clarification, wiping is a separate action from purifying. [b]Posts #86 & 87 - Phatmass' Conclusion[/b] ... from jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) and Nihil Obstat and upon further reflection, I'm going to retract my statement about the altar server talking to the priest. I think the parents should talk to the priest and get the issue resolved properly. The boy shouldn't have to be in the position to correct an adult. AND Definitely. When I was younger I'd have been terrified to be put in such a position. So by Post #13, Galatians had actually figured out the answer on her own, by consulting with her own experts - actual trained canon lawyers/priests who answer these sorts of questions all the time and who actually celebrate Mass. And she knew all along that her ten-year-old son should not be the one asking (or challenging, or confronting, or refusing, or declining) the priest about this, because she is a mother and she has [i]good sense[/i]. It only took the rest of the posters an additional [b]74 posts [/b]to come to the same conclusion! It reminds me of baseball fans arguing vehemently about what the coach should do and why... even though they're not coaches themselves, have no training as coaches, never played pro ball, never played minor league, never played in college, .... shall I go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well that's not quite fair. I've only been in the discussion for an hour and helped bring order to the chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308632695' post='2256693'] It only took the rest of the posters an additional [b]74 posts [/b]to come to the same conclusion! It reminds me of baseball fans arguing vehemently about what the coach should do and why... even though they're not coaches themselves, have no training as coaches, never played pro ball, never played minor league, never played in college, .... shall I go on? [/quote] You forgot about the part where we were talking about the wider issue, i.e. the entire situation surrounding the purification of the vessels. Do you honestly expect threads on a public forum to stay 100% on topic ever, for any reason? Not in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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