Purifying Vessels At Mass

[dUSt]

Cam, you are such a silly guy. Where else would the boy be invited to purify the vessels except [b]during[/b] mass? You make funny debates.

[Cam42]

I'm not silly...and the celebrant could inform him prior to Mass that is what he wants...why do you keep on with this dUSt? Let it go...you were wrong...it's ok to admit it.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Cam42

[dUSt]

Can you remind me again, what I am wrong about? It would be helpful if you could just quote my wrong statement. I will review it, and if it is indeed wrong, I will admit it gracefully.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306440073' post='2246309']

As for the trolling bit...I've been back on the site for about 3 hours and you've engaged me on both threads...how is that not trolling me...? You only have 12,000 posts over 8 years...and now you've got 20 today in two threads that I've posted on? What are you worried about? Are you looking for a reason to ban me again? (I'd bring this up in PM, but I can't do that....so thanks for making me do this in public...I hope you're sufficiently embarrassed, I know that I am, but I'm not hiding from anything anymore.....transparency is the key to orthodoxy. Everyone will know that I hold Catholic positions from now on, since I have to justify them because of the tag you gave me.)
[/quote]

Sorry Cam.
I really hope that you believe that, even if I have often engaged "battles" with you I highly appreciate your participation in forums and I do not agree with your Phishy tag.
But let me say I find you a person with whom sometimes it is very difficult to talk.
If you re read the first page of this thread you'll see you are the person who has firstly quoted dust saying that he was wrong.
I quote your words:
[quote]Ummm...[b]dUSt you're wrong[/b]...he is not entitled to that function. [/quote]
when dust hadn't absolutely said the boy was entitled to do that action.
so then you said: [quote]You're wrong. I read what you said, carefully. There is no need for the child or parents to have to have a confab with the pastor.[/quote] when dust in his first post said that in his opinion the boy should explain before mass that there is a document that says the boy cannot purify the vessel.
This is how I see the subject...anyway I understand your sensitiveness because, after all, I see there is no great acceptance of you in this forum (especially seeing the other thread) and I am sincerely sorry for this.
I know you are a very cultured and good man, only I'd like you were a little "less squared" (I don't know if this has a sense in English...!)

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438639' post='2246296']
And that is a sad statement concerning the Mass that you assist at. You should NOT have to take off your theologian's hat to assist at Mass. It shows the hermeneutic of discontinuity to a T; that a Catholic theologian has to set aside his education to assist at Mass.

As you well know, I also have degrees in Sacred Theology and I refuse to separate my education from my Faith. My intellect is and should be illuminated by the Sacred Mysteries, not snuffed out under a bushel basket of abuse and intellectualism.
[/quote]
I do not assist at mass. I will occasionally sing, but that is usually at a funeral or wedding. Our parish is run by the Basilian Fathers, and it is as orthodox as I have ever seen. When they took over, they had a bunch of problems to correct, and they did it quickly, relatively quietly, and with tact. they got rid of 95% of the EMHCs, made everyone go back to kneeling at the consecration, and cleaned up the RCIA. I suspect our next liturgical dance at Easter will be when hell freezes over. They started using the new translation of the Eucharistic prayers as soon as they were approved. My education is not so that I can become a priest. I will leave that to my male classmates. I guess growing up in a military family made me appreciate the value of things like obedience and chain of command.

The only intellectualism I am seeing is in your posts. If you want to control everything in the Church, become a bishop and get elected Pope.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306439818' post='2246307']

and i'll bet you make sure everyone knows it too.
[/quote]
This is, if I recall correctly, only the second time I've heard Cam talk about his education experience, and the first time was when I specifically asked him about his background.

[Winchester]

[img]http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-10/death-guild-thunderdome.jpg[/img]

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306441339' post='2246323']
I do not assist at mass. I will occasionally sing, but that is usually at a funeral or wedding. Our parish is run by the Basilian Fathers, and it is as orthodox as I have ever seen. When they took over, they had a bunch of problems to correct, and they did it quickly, relatively quietly, and with tact. they got rid of 95% of the EMHCs, made everyone go back to kneeling at the consecration, and cleaned up the RCIA. I suspect our next liturgical dance at Easter will be when hell freezes over. They started using the new translation of the Eucharistic prayers as soon as they were approved. My education is not so that I can become a priest. I will leave that to my male classmates. I guess growing up in a military family made me appreciate the value of things like obedience and chain of command.

The only intellectualism I am seeing is in your posts. If you want to control everything in the Church, become a bishop and get elected Pope.
[/quote]

All people assist at Mass, from a theological point of view. If we are worshiping properly, then we are unitng our souls to the unbloody sacrifice as well as offering our petitions that we spiritually laid on the altar as we prepared for Mass, along with the celebrant.

You're darn tootin' we assist at Mass. It is the traditional way of talking about going to Holy Mass.

I'm glad that you have an orthodox Mass to assist at. That warms my heart. I love to hear that the Mass another assists at is orthodox and good. It doesn't make sense then that you would want to not think theologically then, whilst assisting at Holy Mass.

As far as intellectualism HERE goes...that is what HERE is for. This is a place to come and talk through the faith, so I'm glad that you think me an intellectual. I don't want to control everything in the Church, I just want the Church to control what it needs in the way that it should, through 2000 years of tradition and Tradition. I have an opinion about that and this is the forum on which to speak about it. I won't apologize for doing that.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306440810' post='2246317']
Can you remind me again, what I am wrong about? It would be helpful if you could just quote my wrong statement. I will review it, and if it is indeed wrong, I will admit it gracefully.
[/quote]


I think that you're wrong about this:

[quote]It's probably a good idea to talk to the priest about it before your son just starts refusing to do it.[/quote]

There is no need for it. What can he do to change the precept? Nothing. He simply needs to state that he won't be doing that going forward and that he should not be expected to do so, based upon the regulations the Church has had in place since 2006. Again, for the umpteenth time...there is no need to confab with the priest about it, he just needs to make it clear that he won't be doing that.

If his services are not required beyond that time, it is better for the boy, because then he won't be complicit in an abuse of the Mass. If his services are required after that, then the celebrant knows that he won't be purifying any vessels going forward.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306442743' post='2246334']
I think that you're wrong about this:

There is no need for it. What can he do to change the precept? Nothing. He simply needs to state that he won't be doing that going forward and that he should not be expected to do so, based upon the regulations the Church has had in place since 2006. Again, for the umpteenth time...there is no need to confab with the priest about it, he just needs to make it clear that he won't be doing that.
[/quote]
So, you think it is wrong for them to talk to the priest about it.

Thank you! This lends a lot of insight to your methodology when it comes to dealing with issues at the local parish level.

I must say, I disagree with your "tactful" way of dealing with things though. Life is a series of relationships. We must deal with actual people all the time. People learn. People change minds. People grow. Yes, even priests. So, I think it is a flawed mentality to go through life and situations with the pre-assumed position that talking to people will never do any good. To each his own though. I can say this... I would be genuinely surprised if your methods for affecting change ever actually affect any change.

[AudreyGrace]

Talk to the priest...don't talk to the priest...[i]when[/i] should he talk to the priest? [i]where [/i]should he talk to the priest? Such a fierce confusion.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306443868' post='2246338']
So, you think it is wrong for them to talk to the priest about it.

Thank you! This lends a lot of insight to your methodology when it comes to dealing with issues at the local parish level.

I must say, I disagree with your "tactful" way of dealing with things though. Life is a series of relationships. We must deal with actual people all the time. People learn. People change minds. People grow. Yes, even priests. So, I think it is a flawed mentality to go through life and situations with the pre-assumed position that talking to people will never do any good. To each his own though. I can say this... I would be genuinely surprised if your methods for affecting change ever actually affect any change.


[/quote]

Oh, I'm all for engaging a conversation, when a conversation is warranted. How is discussing a fact warranted. The boy should simply say that I'm not able to do that. AND THAT SHOULD BE ENOUGH.

But oh, no....in this age of emotionalism we have to "work through" everything. That is such BS. We should be able to speak to the truth and that should be the end of it. Redemptoris Sacramentum gives us that RIGHT! That's correct...a RIGHT!

You do disagree with me, that's fine...but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong. While life may be a series of "relationships" (to use your language), that doesn't mean that everything has to be a dialogue. There are times when a clear statement is enough. Such as, "I don't have the right to purify, please don't ask me to do that. Here's why...(sources)..."

The situation we're talking about isn't pre-assumed. It is crystal clear. I've shown how. I've shown why. [b]YOU[/b] refuse to accept it, because we should all "dialogue" and "commune." That is a mistake. Relationships have never worked that way....and they have only been defined that way since the mid 1960s (psychological, not ecclesiastical).

You might be more surprised than you think....my view is more accepted every day....as is traditionalism....All the psycho-babble is going the way of the do-do....

[Gal. 5:22,23]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1306448254' post='2246369']
Talk to the priest...don't talk to the priest...[i]when[/i] should he talk to the priest? [i]where [/i]should he talk to the priest? Such a fierce confusion.
[/quote]

[i]He's[/i] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with, and it's super tricky because the priest (pastor) is also my boss. Also, my son absolutely loves serving. He's the only one in our parish of 3,500 families who wants to serve Daily Mass. My saying something to the pastor about this will not go over well, this I know.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306462197' post='2246461']
[i]He's[/i] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with, and it's super tricky because the priest (pastor) is also my boss. Also, my son absolutely loves serving. He's the only one in our parish of 3,500 families who wants to serve Daily Mass. My saying something to the pastor about this will not go over well, this I know.
[/quote]
And this is why you should simply talk to the priest about it before-hand, and not put it on your son to make an act of defiance. First of all, it's just good manners. Secondly, you will show the priest that you have enough respect for him and his position to discuss it with him before taking action.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306462197' post='2246461']
[i]He's[/i] not going to talk to the priest because he is ten. He has no idea that what he did today was wrong. This is up to me to deal with, and it's super tricky because the priest (pastor) is also my boss. Also, my son absolutely loves serving. He's the only one in our parish of 3,500 families who wants to serve Daily Mass. My saying something to the pastor about this will not go over well, this I know.
[/quote]

In making my statements, I fully and completely realize that it isn't up to a boy to make the correction, but we must speak to the truth of the statement. If the issue is directed at the boy, then to speak of it from his point of view is best. I hope you realize that, in my statements. If you didn't, I hope you now do.

In your questions, I would not engage in any undue conversation. The Church is clear, so we should assent our wills to that, not what the whims of a priest might be.

Above there were rumblings about changing hearts. Perhaps the SACRIFICE you and your son may need to make, in order NOT to be complicit in abuse can change hearts, especially the priest. If not, then I have said my peace.

As I said before, the boy should NEVER have been put in that situation. The fact that he was obliges him not to engage in it again, because that person who is responsible for his Catholicity now knows better. The will of the Church is first with regard to her faithful. We assent our wills to that of the Church. NOT vice versa.

Not serving, even though he loves it, is better than serving knowing that he is complicit in abuse. I will not waiver on that advice. I have not as a master of ceremonies, and I will not on this site or any other. If he really wants to continue serving, make it clear that the boy will only serve if the Mass is faithful, 100%. That is the only way he can bolster and grow in his faith.

I am looking out for the interest of the boy...he should serve if able. It is a great way to promote a possible vocation. I will not support or condone any action which is inconsistent with the will of the Church. Clearly, an extraordinary minister, no matter the stripe or vintage, who purifies is not in line with the will of the Church.

I support your son and you, as you approach the celebrant/pastor to make a very difficult statement which exemplifies the will of Holy Mother Church. My prayer is that his liberalism will abate enough for your son to be able to continue to do what he loves. If the pastor/celebrant does not relent, then I pray you will find a place where you can assist at Holy Mass where orthodoxy rules the day.

God Bless you and your 10 year old.