Purifying Vessels At Mass

[dUSt]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306431986' post='2246259']
After Mass, he should inform the celebrant that he needs to finish purifying the vessel and and respectfully decline to do that in the future.
[/quote]
But you said, and I quote, "[i]You're wrong. He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need.[/i]"

When I said he should talk to the priest, you said I was wrong. Are you now saying that [b]you[/b] are [b]also[/b] wrong, or are you saying I was right in the first place? Or, is your official position that he should spring this on the priest [b]during[/b] mass, as opposed to [b]before[/b] mass? You should be more clear.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306435912' post='2246280']
But you said, and I quote, "[i]You're wrong. He doesn't need to talk to the priest about it. There simply is no need.[/i]"

When I said he should talk to the priest, you said I was wrong. Are you now saying that [b]you[/b] are [b]also[/b] wrong, or are you saying I was right in the first place? Or, is your official position that he should spring this on the priest [b]during[/b] mass, as opposed to [b]before[/b] mass? You should be more clear.
[/quote]

Whatever...you're trolling...

What I said was clear. What I said was unambiguous. You muddied the waters. The boy has no right to purify. The action in which the celebrant was asking him to do was clearly part of the purification process. He should not do that. If I was unclear at all, which I don't think that I was, it was clarified in subsequent posts, even down to the point where I explained what he should do if it were to arise in Mass.

At no point do I think that he needs to have a confab with the celebrant. It is clear what he should do. I have been faced with this before, as I am an MC in my parish. I have to be able to speak to all issues which are liturgical, because that is part of my role. I spoke to them.

You need to realize that just because YOU think that I am phishy, doesn't mean that I actually am. I know what to do and I am very good at it. You just don't like the fact that I'm right in this instance.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Gal. 5:22,23' timestamp='1306433594' post='2246266']
Thank you for the replies. I'm more confused, I think. The priest (our pastor) is a Canon Lawyer, as is my Spiritual Director. I trust the latter implicitly and he tells me that as long as my son does not purify them in the sense of consuming what is left of the sacred species, there is no problem with him just drying the sacred vessels. I've just sent an e-mail to another solid priest who is a Canon Lawyer as well. I know him well enough that even if he tells me it's technically ok, he'll say that he doesn't like it. This is a tricky situation because I work at my parish...
[/quote]

Here is what you should ask him:

In light of [url="http://www.adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum #119[/url] and the document [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/cleansingofvessels.pdf"]CONGREGATIO CULTO DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM[/url], should my son be purifying vessels?

and

Since [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf"]GIRM #163[/url] speaks to the action specifically, should we have him respectfully decline or simply cover the chalice during the Mass and have the celebrant (or other PROPERLY installed cleric) finish purfying after Holy Mass?

Those are the two questions I would ask. I have included links for you, so that you can have documents in hand when asking your canon lawyer friend.

[CatherineM]

This is why, when I attend mass, I go as a sinner, a lay person, a member of the body of Christ. If I go as a theologian, I might be inclined to intellectually pick apart the mass rather than just experience the mystery and grandeur.

[Cam42]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1306433914' post='2246269']
I second dust on this, in the position of the boy I would talk with the pastor before serving saying that the next time I will serve I do not intend to purify the vessels because this is not my right nor my position.
The fact that he can't purify the vessel doesn't imply that he has to say no exclusively and absolutely only during the Mass' service and in no other circumstance.
[/quote]


I don't know where everyone is coming up with this assumption that I am expecting out and out refusal at the altar or credence. I am not. What I have said all along is that the boy should refuse when he asked to do this. I have given clear steps on how to do it tactfully. I have also said all along that he should simply inform the pastor that he has no right to do this and that he should not be expected to do so in the future, as it is not his right to do so. There is no conversation to be had.

If the priest doesn't have enough respect for the boy to honor him not wanting to participate in an abusive action in the liturgy, then the boy shouldn't be serving there to begin with. That is what is harmful to his Faith, not the fact that the celebrant might be offended.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306438311' post='2246293']
This is why, when I attend mass, I go as a sinner, a lay person, a member of the body of Christ. If I go as a theologian, I might be inclined to intellectually pick apart the mass rather than just experience the mystery and grandeur.
[/quote]
that's what's been nice about going to Mass and just being able to participate, instead of feeling like i was 'on the job.'

[Cam42]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1306438311' post='2246293']
This is why, when I attend mass, I go as a sinner, a lay person, a member of the body of Christ. If I go as a theologian, I might be inclined to intellectually pick apart the mass rather than just experience the mystery and grandeur.
[/quote]

And that is a sad statement concerning the Mass that you assist at. You should NOT have to take off your theologian's hat to assist at Mass. It shows the hermeneutic of discontinuity to a T; that a Catholic theologian has to set aside his education to assist at Mass.

As you well know, I also have degrees in Sacred Theology and I refuse to separate my education from my Faith. My intellect is and should be illuminated by the Sacred Mysteries, not snuffed out under a bushel basket of abuse and intellectualism.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306438490' post='2246295']
that's what's been nice about going to Mass and just being able to participate, instead of feeling like i was 'on the job.'
[/quote]

A theologian is always "on the job" when it comes to Holy Mother Church. Sadz...that you have to think that way.

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306437499' post='2246286']
Whatever...you're trolling...

[/quote]
[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/5762824164_c2b01f6984_s.jpg[/img]


[quote] I am an MC in my parish.
[/quote]


[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dance.gif[/img]

[dUSt]

Cam, you seem to be very stubborn. You said I was wrong for suggesting that the boy talk to the priest [b]before[/b] mass. Your plan of action was to spring it on the priest [b]during[/b] mass.

Why is it more tactful to bring this issue to light [b]during[/b] the liturgy as opposed to [b]before[/b] the liturgy? Very simple question. It seems to me, with the love you seem to have for a proper liturgy, interrupting the liturgy with a moment of surprise would violate everything you stand for.

Maybe it's perfectly clear in your own mind, but I am honestly very confused over the point/argument you are trying to win here.

And please, these are real questions. Please don't dismiss it as me "trolling" again.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438749' post='2246298']
A theologian is always "on the job" when it comes to Holy Mother Church. Sadz...that you have to think that way.
[/quote]
sadz that i was made to feel that way from my bosses at the parish. at the parish i now attend, i don't shut off my brain, but i don't feel looked down upon for genuflecting before receiving the Eucharist, or kneeling after receiving the Eucharist in thanksgiving, or praying after Mass, or any number of things I used to do that I would get treated harshly for by my bosses. thanks for thinking the worst of me though.

and technically, i have no college degree, so i'm not a theologian in the strictest sense.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438639' post='2246296']
And that is a sad statement concerning the Mass that you assist at. You should NOT have to take off your theologian's hat to assist at Mass. It shows the hermeneutic of discontinuity to a T; that a Catholic theologian has to set aside [s]his[/s] her education to assist at Mass.[/quote] fixed.

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438639' post='2246296']As you well know, I also have degrees in Sacred Theology and I refuse to separate my education from my Faith. My intellect is and should be illuminated by the Sacred Mysteries, not snuffed out under a bushel basket of abuse and intellectualism.
[/quote]
and i'll bet you make sure everyone knows it too.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306438403' post='2246294']
I have also said all along that he should simply inform the pastor that he has no right to do this and that he should not be expected to do so in the future, as it is not his right to do so. There is no conversation to be had.
[/quote]

In my opinion, informing the pastor that the boy has not the right to dry the vessel is a conversation, and a conversation, even if very short, is an exchange of words, unless a person does not want to communicate only by gestures.
I really don't see the sense of this discussion... all have clearly said that the boy has not the right to dry the vessel, and this was the question asked in the thread.
Why are we now going on discussing about telling "no" before, during or after, about talking with the priest or not talking, telling him the boy has not the right to dry the vessel but not having a conversation etc...?

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306439105' post='2246303']
Cam, you seem to be very stubborn. You said I was wrong for suggesting that the boy talk to the priest [b]before[/b] mass. Your plan of action was to spring it on the priest [b]during[/b] mass.

Why is it more tactful to bring this issue to light [b]during[/b] the liturgy as opposed to [b]before[/b] the liturgy? Very simple question. It seems to me, with the love you seem to have for a proper liturgy, interrupting the liturgy with a moment of surprise would violate everything you stand for.

Maybe it's perfectly clear in your own mind, but I am honestly very confused over the point/argument you are trying to win here.

And please, these are real questions. Please don't dismiss it as me "trolling" again.
[/quote]


Where did I say that he should do anything [b]DURING[/b] Mass? I said that the next time he is asked, he should respectfully decline. I then went on to say that there is no need for a drawn out confab/counseling session with the celebrant/pastor about it. The teaching of the Church is clear.

[b]YOU[/b] are implying and reading into the statement [b]WAY[/b] more than what was there. So, I clarified when Catherine asked. I said this:

[quote]I never advocated visible disobedience. I simply said that he should respectfully decline the invitation to purify. If the celebrant hands him the partially purified chalice, then he should simply cover it with the purificator and place it on the credence, without any attempt to purify. After Mass, he should inform the celebrant that he needs to finish purifying the vessel and and respectfully decline to do that in the future. There needs to be no drama, there needs to be no dissention, because there is none. The boy is being clear about his role and dutifully fulfilling it.[/quote]

That is not "springing" anything on anybody.

Again, I never advocated the boy throwing his hands up at Mass and walking away shaking his head, which is what you're implying. The implications are not on my part, bud....they are on yours. If you can't keep up with the conversation and are confused by it, then maybe you should retire....it seems like others are getting it just fine.

As for the trolling bit...I've been back on the site for about 3 hours and you've engaged me on both threads...how is that not trolling me...? You only have 12,000 posts over 8 years...and now you've got 20 today in two threads that I've posted on? What are you worried about? Are you looking for a reason to ban me again? (I'd bring this up in PM, but I can't do that....so thanks for making me do this in public...I hope you're sufficiently embarrassed, I know that I am, but I'm not hiding from anything anymore.....transparency is the key to orthodoxy. Everyone will know that I hold Catholic positions from now on, since I have to justify them because of the tag you gave me.)

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306439739' post='2246306']
sadz that i was made to feel that way from my bosses at the parish. at the parish i now attend, i don't shut off my brain, but i don't feel looked down upon for genuflecting before receiving the Eucharist, or kneeling after receiving the Eucharist in thanksgiving, or praying after Mass, or any number of things I used to do that I would get treated harshly for by my bosses. thanks for thinking the worst of me though.

and technically, i have no college degree, so i'm not a theologian in the strictest sense.
[/quote]

I wasn't thinking the worst of you, I was thinking the worst of the situation.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306439818' post='2246307']
fixed.


and i'll bet you make sure everyone knows it too.
[/quote]

Ummm....wow!!!!

No, and how is applying proper grammar something that needs fixing. If I am speaking in generalities, it is absolutely correct to refer to a noun in the masculine, even when speaking about a female. I will not apologize for being grammatically correct and politically incorrect.

As for my degrees, I now have to justify them because of the tags that have been unjustly applied over a month ago.