Chamomile Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 (edited) [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306432749' post='2246262'] Sure they're linked but they are not the same Cam. The Eucharist is recognized to be greater than the liturgy because Eucharist (which is perfect) can be confected through liturgy (which can be imperfect). Therefore it transcends the liturgy. Eucharist in adoration is ministry. It is a balm to the wounds of the person. it is a balm to the wounds of the Church. [/quote] Hmmm... so I think we're getting off-topic here, but I just wanted to say that I think Cam has a very important point that shouldn't be dismissed (although I do see where you're coming from, jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) - the Eucharist is Christ Himself and therefore is truly the greatest Good). However, you just can'tt separate the liturgy from the Eucharist, and it wasn't claimed that they were the same, as far as I can tell. This is the way Our Lord gave Himself to us. The Eucharist does not exist without the liturgy, and as I see it, receiving Holy Communion during the liturgy is basically "the reason" Christ instituted the Eucharist. I know some people are sick and can't attend a liturgy and therefore have the Eucharist brought to them, but that's definitely the exception, not the norm. Yes, Eucharistic Adoration is beautiful and an important part of many people's lives... but literally fulfilling what Our Lord commanded - saying that unless we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, we have no life in us, and to do this very act in remembrance of Him - is more important just due to the fact that it was explicitly given to us in this way for the lives of our souls. And offering this perfect act of worship is, well, the right thing to do as humans. And I guess to bring it back on topic... my opinion is no female altar servers at all, whatever they're wearing. But I'm not going to give any supporting evidence for my opinion because I think other people will do a better job presenting that viewpoint than I could. [size="1"]ETA: eek! I didn't notice this was in the debate table... so if anyone responds to me, I probably won't see it because I try to avoid this area for the preservation of my peace of mind [/size] Edited May 26, 2011 by Chamomile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306432749' post='2246262'] Sure they're linked but they are not the same Cam. The Eucharist is recognized to be greater than the liturgy because Eucharist (which is perfect) can be confected through liturgy (which can be imperfect). Therefore it transcends the liturgy. Eucharist in adoration is ministry. It is always a balm to the wounds of the person. it is always a balm to the wounds of the Church. The liturgy (as you well know) is not always. Otherwise the Church would state that "the Liturgy is the Source and Summit" and we don't [/quote] What does that mean? The Eucharist in adoration is ministry. You're using the word ministry out of context. Eucharistic Adoration is not ministry. Eucharistic Adoration is a devotion. The Eucharist is a sign. One can minister using the Eucharist, but the Eucharist itself is not ministry. Neither is Eucharistic Adoration. I disagree that the liturgical action, when properly celebrated, is not always a balm to the wounds of the Church. The only time it is not a balm is when man abuses it and creates defect within it. While the liturgy can most certainly develop within a proper hermeneutic of continuity, it is as necessary as the Eucharist itself. For without the Mass, we have no Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Cam, you strayed far from my point. I said that it is more important to convince a priest that Eucharistic Adoration was important, instead of trying to convince him that female altar servers were wrong. Somehow, in your tested methods of debate, you turned it around to make it seem like I was implying that adoration was more important than the liturgy. Not even [b]close[/b] to what I was saying. Let me restate my stance... [b]If you have a priest who places no importance on the Blessed Sacrament, it would be a better use of your time and energy to convince him of the importance of the Real Presence, rather than argue over female altar servers[/b] (which are currently allowed by the church). Would you like to address my actual point now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306434079' post='2246271'] What does that mean? The Eucharist in adoration is ministry. You're using the word ministry out of context. Eucharistic Adoration is not ministry. Eucharistic Adoration is a devotion. The Eucharist is a sign. One can minister using the Eucharist, but the Eucharist itself is not ministry. Neither is Eucharistic Adoration. I disagree that the liturgical action, when properly celebrated, is not always a balm to the wounds of the Church. The only time it is not a balm is when man abuses it and creates defect within it. While the liturgy can most certainly develop within a proper hermeneutic of continuity, it is as necessary as the Eucharist itself. For without the Mass, we have no Eucharist. [/quote] Are you honestly suggesting that people who participate in adoration are not being ministered to directly by Christ? Really??? of course it's ministry. I know exactly what i'm saying and how I'm using my words. And as far as your second point, you're making mine!! Read what I say [quote] The Eucharist is recognized to be greater than the liturgy because Eucharist (which is perfect) can be confected through liturgy (which can be imperfect).The liturgy (as you well know) is not always (a balm). [/quote] When it's not imperfect (i.e. illicit) then it can be a balm. I said that. But what is more to the point is that even when it's imperfect, it confects perfection. This is why the Eucharist is linked to but transcends the liturgy. And I asked you indirectly but now I will ask you directly. While we are on this Earth will we ever have a time when there is no liturgy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306440089' post='2246310'] Cam, you strayed far from my point. I said that it is more important to convince a priest that Eucharistic Adoration was important, instead of trying to convince him that female altar servers were wrong. Somehow, in your tested methods of debate, you turned it around to make it seem like I was implying that adoration was more important than the liturgy. Not even [b]close[/b] to what I was saying. Let me restate my stance... [b]If you have a priest who places no importance on the Blessed Sacrament, it would be a better use of your time and energy to convince him of the importance of the Real Presence, rather than argue over female altar servers[/b] (which are currently allowed by the church). Would you like to address my actual point now? [/quote] No, because your point has nothing to do with the original question. I am talking about girls serving....I don't care about your point. If you want to bring it up, spin it off and maybe we can talk about it there, if I decide I want to...this thread is about something completely different. It is about girls serving and wearing choir dress. But to humor you, I'll restate what I already said...I think that both are equally important issues. You just don't like that answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306440107' post='2246311'] Are you honestly suggesting that people who participate in adoration are not being ministered to directly by Christ? Really??? of course it's ministry. I know exactly what i'm saying and how I'm using my words. And as far as your second point, you're making mine!! Read what I say When it's not imperfect (i.e. illicit) then it can be a balm. I said that. But what is more to the point is that even when it's imperfect, it confects perfection. This is why the Eucharist is linked to but transcends the liturgy. And I asked you indirectly but now I will ask you directly. While we are on this Earth will we ever have a time when there is no liturgy? [/quote] Eucharistic Adoration is a devotion, not a ministry. Bottom line. The Sacred Host doesn't minister to people. It is an inanimate object. To minister, assumes that one must actively perform some sort of ministry. The Sacred Host cannot do that. One can build a closer relationship to God through a devotion to the Eucharist in Adoration, but one isn't ministered to by the Eucharist. Come on jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff), you know this.... Are you saying that the Novus Ordo is imperfect? I think that you are, you should be careful, you'll get your Church Scholar tag taken away for that. The Eucharist cannot be separated from Mass any more than the Mass can be separated from the Eucharist. They are dependent upon one another. The Eucharist can exist outside the Mass, but that is not what is at question here. No, while we are on Earth, we will never have a time, going forward, when there is no liturgy. But that is taking what I said out of context. I was making an allegorical statement that if the seminaries dry up, then we would lose the ability to have the Eucharist. You do know what allegory is don't you? It is figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another. Which is what I did. Please don't assume it was any different. Don't forget, I know your game as well as you do, we developed it together, in order to troll this site 7 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote]But to humor you, I'll restate what I already said...I think that both are equally important issues. You just don't like that answer. [/quote] I just want to make sure I'm getting your position right. You are saying that the issue of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is equally important to the issue of female altar servers. If this is your stance, then yes, I don't like that answer. I'm no theologian, but we disagree on this. If that is not your stance, then please, in one sentence, restate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306443127' post='2246335'] I just want to make sure I'm getting your position right. You are saying that the issue of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is equally important to the issue of female altar servers. If this is your stance, then yes, I don't like that answer. I'm no theologian, but we disagree on this. If that is not your stance, then please, in one sentence, restate it. [/quote] I'm not at all surprised that you don't like my answer. You haven't liked much of anything I've had to say in the last 6 months. If a priest is having issues with the Real Presence, then he should probably be out of active ministry and in a monastery trying to work through that issue. In that case the whole female altar server issue is moot to him. If a priest is in active ministry (see jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff), that is how one uses minsitry) then he should concern himself equally with those things which go on in his Mass and the Real Presence. For he needs to teach consistently on all aspects. And if there is no particular reason for having female altar servers then they should go away. And during the first Mass with only boys (since presumably the early 1990s) he can preach on the Real Presence and link it to vocations and how it is through both aspects we get good, holy, solid, orthodox priests. But that makes to gosh darned much sense. So, I won't say anything... Edited May 26, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/dingdong34/Cat%20Macros/ButthurtPost2.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306443628' post='2246337'] If a priest is having issues with the Real Presence, then he should probably be out of active ministry and in a monastery trying to work through that issue. [/quote] But you just confirmed that the Real Presence issue is equally important to the female altar server issue. So, if you believe your above sentence to be true, then you also believe this sentence to be true: [i]"If a priest is having issues with female altar servers, then he should probably be out of active ministry and in a monastery trying to work through that issue."[/i] Dang. That's harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306432091' post='2246260'] What is the particular need in your parish for female altar servers, if boys are available to serve? [/quote] Well...for one thing... they haven't trained any new servers in about 3 years, and only a handful of the ones they have left are reliable/take it seriously... they need to keep the ones they've got otherwise there will be none until someone decides to put in the effort to train more... Also, it is almost impossible to get enough that can be called on short notice (for a funeral for example) and whose parents care enough to drive them.. for example, I lived about a 5 minute walk away from my parish church, so I was always called in when no one showed up or they couldn't get anyone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306423199' post='2246209'] Females do not have that characteristic. [/quote] Yeah for simply being born female. I am glad that the Church has decided in its infinite wisdom to allow women to serve as altar servers, lectors, and eucharistic ministers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1306446723' post='2246365'] Yeah for simply being born female. [/quote] It is no different from how females do not have the characteristic to be priests, just as males do not - nor could ever - have the characteristic to be mothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1306426127' post='2246223'] You're preaching to the choir. But, the fact is, the church allows female altar servers. Get over it. You have to pick your battles, and in the above case, a priest who does not embrace Christ's True Presence in the Holy Eucharist is a [b]far[/b] greater concern than a priest who allows female altar servers. If you do not see this, then I'm afraid you're blinded by your obsession with all things liturgical--and in my opinion, are doing more harm than good if your intent is to glorify Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. [/quote] Whoa... the preist has actually denied the True Presence? Or he simply shows no interest in it? I have issue with female Altar servers, I have real issue with a female server carrying the Cross during Procession, etc. But compared to a priest who denies the True Presence.... the altar server thing is a very minor issue. The Eucharist and the Truth of Christ physical presence within it should ALWAYS be the piority when regarding Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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