Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306428454' post='2246235'] Actually i would say I KNOW this to be true in my heart, that if 24 hour adoration was occurring at every parish, the rest of our problems with abuses in the liturgy, funding, etc. would all but disappear. [/quote] How are things going at St. Columba's? They've had perpetual adoration for almost 20 years and they are going to have to cluster with St. Adalbert's in order to survive....also, they still are known for being a bastian of liturgical orthodoxy....I'm just sayin'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306428895' post='2246237'] How are things going at St. Columba's? They've had perpetual adoration for almost 20 years and they are going to have to cluster with St. Adalbert's in order to survive....also, they still are known for being a bastian of liturgical orthodoxy....I'm just sayin'.... [/quote] Is there a lot of liturgical abuses going on there? Any liturgical dancers running around barefoot? I gonna bet no. So your point is as sound as mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306429069' post='2246238'] Is there a lot of liturgical abuses going on there? Any liturgical dancers running around barefoot? I gonna bet no. So your point is as sound as mine. [/quote] There is more to liturgical abuse than Vicky Klima....abuse can be as subtle as too many EMHC's....or as wild as, well, Vicky Klima in a leotard (not a good sight to see, if you don't know who she is...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Actually I'm gonna say you're making my point(or I guess dUSt's). If 24 hour adoration was installed in a church that was practicing liturgical abuses, the abuses would disappear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306429402' post='2246240'] Actually I'm gonna say you're making my point(or I guess dUSt's). If 24 hour adoration was installed in a church that was practicing liturgical abuses, the abuses would disappear. [/quote] I'm gonna disagree. It takes more than adoration, it takes a change of heart of the faithful. They get that FIRST, through the liturgical action. They get that second through the other Sacraments, they get that third through remainder of the life of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306429735' post='2246243'] I'm gonna disagree. It takes more than adoration, it takes a change of heart of the faithful. They get that FIRST, through the liturgical action. They get that second through the other Sacraments, they get that third through remainder of the life of the Church. [/quote] I wasn't going to get into this conversation, but I'm pretty sure the sacraments have a greater ability to change hearts, especially the Eucharist. It is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. If that can't change hearts to love Him, nothing of this world will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 I say no to female altar servers. Not sure what leotards have to do with that (unless the female altar servers are in leotards, in which case...well, no, they still shouldn't altar serve). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1306419927' post='2246187'] I was a female altar server growing up, and it was great to have that opportunity. We wore white robes with rope cinctures in the liturgical color, as did the male altar servers. The only time I wore what you are referring to as 'choir dress' was when I was asked to be thurifer at my cousin's wedding in an Episcopal church. Certainly, there are situations where it would be silly to use female altar servers (ie, at a seminary, where there are plenty of young men around who should be practicing serving at the altar). But I see no problem with the average parish making use of both male and female children for these roles. [/quote] me too we had a good number of boys and girls as servers and my little brother is one now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306429735' post='2246243'] I'm gonna disagree. It takes more than adoration, it takes a change of heart of the faithful. They get that FIRST, through the liturgical action. They get that second through the other Sacraments, they get that third through remainder of the life of the Church. [/quote] Then logically you would disagree when the Church states that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Christian life. The Eucharist is more than liturgy. [quote][b][url="javascript:openWindow("]1324[/url][/b] The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."[sup]136[/sup] "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."[sup]137[/sup][/quote] BTW I only quote this for those who are reading along Camster. You know this as well as I. And for the record, I personally know you you stand in lock step with this teaching! But the way you have phrased your argument, you are not demonstrating that. I'm just showing flaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1306429946' post='2246244'] I wasn't going to get into this conversation, but I'm pretty sure the sacraments have a greater ability to change hearts, especially the Eucharist. It is the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. If that can't change hearts to love Him, nothing of this world will. [/quote] Where does the Eucharist come from? I mean, how is it confected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306430405' post='2246250'] Then logically you would disagree when the Church states that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Christian life. The Eucharist is more than liturgy. BTW I only quote this for those who are reading along Camster. You know this as well as I. And for the record, I personally know you you stand in lock step with this teaching! But the way you have phrased your argument, you are not demonstrating that. I'm just showing flaw [/quote] The Eucharist is the Sacrament. The liturgy is the action by whiich the Sacrament is confected. They are inseparably linked. Without the liturgy, you have no Eucharist. Without the Eucharist, you have no need for the liturgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1306429959' post='2246245'] I say no to female altar servers. Not sure what leotards have to do with that (unless the female altar servers are in leotards, in which case...well, no, they still shouldn't altar serve). [/quote] Leotards have nothing to do with it...it was an attempted hijack that was squashed. Invoking Vicky Klima's name will always kill a hijack...try it sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306422994' post='2246207'] I think that it would go along way to fostering vocations if the pastors of the parishes would simply create a sodality for the girls currently serving and have them serve Holy Mother Church in that way, rather than giving them false hope that their service at the altar might lead someplace more meaningful. [/quote] I have never encountered any female servers who have a "false hope that their service at the altar might lead to someplace more meaningful" Actually, I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean by this... I do understand the point that boys should be used when they are available, and that they might be scared off by female servers, but this seems difficult to deal with... there was an uproar at my parish when the female servers were first given different garments to wear... I cannot imagine what would happen if a priest banned female servers all together... I do understand that popular opinion/peer pressure should Never be the deciding factor on these matters, but I can understand how a priest would feel reluctant to make this change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1306431627' post='2246257'] I have never encountered any female servers who have a "false hope that their service at the altar might lead to someplace more meaningful" Actually, I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean by this... I do understand the point that boys should be used when they are available, and that they might be scared off by female servers, but this seems difficult to deal with... there was an uproar at my parish when the female servers were first given different garments to wear... I cannot imagine what would happen if a priest banned female servers all together... I do understand that popular opinion/peer pressure should Never be the deciding factor on these matters, but I can understand how a priest would feel reluctant to make this change... [/quote] What is the particular need in your parish for female altar servers, if boys are available to serve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1306431377' post='2246253'] The Eucharist is the Sacrament. The liturgy is the action by whiich the Sacrament is confected. They are inseparably linked. Without the liturgy, you have no Eucharist. Without the Eucharist, you have no need for the liturgy. [/quote] Sure they're linked but they are not the same Cam. The Eucharist is recognized to be greater than the liturgy because Eucharist (which is perfect) can be confected through liturgy (which can be imperfect). Therefore it transcends the liturgy. Eucharist in adoration is ministry. It is always a balm to the wounds of the person. it is always a balm to the wounds of the Church. The liturgy (as you well know) is not always. Otherwise the Church would state that "the Liturgy is the Source and Summit" and we don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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