4588686 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306809479' post='2247951'] It is unfortunate when well-meaning Vatican officials speak on topics that are not necessarily within their competency. It creates a lot of confusion. [/quote] This message seems to be with the Pope's backing [url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2657731/posts"]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2657731/posts[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306809479' post='2247951'] It is unfortunate when well-meaning Vatican officials speak on topics that are not necessarily within their competency. It creates a lot of confusion. [/quote] You find the the Vatican's delegate to the UN to be incompetent. Based on what grounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 lines like this in Vatican documents [quote]The current document calls on every nation and state "to impose a strict control on the sale of handguns and small arms. Limiting the purchase of such arms would certainly not infringe on the rights of anyone."[/quote] make me think gun control just [i]might[/i] be ok. Idk, maybe that's just me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306809798' post='2247952'] Why would it be outside of his competency? how do you know what he knows? [/quote] The competency of a priest tends to be in the liturgical, moral, and canonical areas. While gun control has a moral dimension, as I established, it also has legal and criminal aspects which many priests would not have studied or have any particular moral authority. [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306811224' post='2247956'] You find the the Vatican's delegate to the UN to be incompetent. Based on what grounds? [/quote] Didn't say that, Jimbo. Edited for typos. Edited May 31, 2011 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1306805033' post='2247914'] [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=45068"]http://www.catholicc...fm?recnum=45068[/url] [/quote] Wow for real? You know the Pope came out in support of the use of condoms too... if you believe the Media. Personally I don't and believe there is a more level head less liberal bias way of looking at what "the Vatican" says. Example. [b]"In a world marked by evil ... [u]the right of legitimate defense by means of arms exists.[/u] This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, f[u]or the common good of the family or of the civil community[/u]. [u]This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms[/u]". (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, "The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection" in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144). [/b] Of course there are limits, because there are licit ways to owe and accquire arms and there are illicit ways. But there does exist a right for a individual to bare arms in defense of his family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306812828' post='2247975'] But there does exist a right for a individual to bare arms in defense of his family. [/quote] I certainly believe this. And Idon't think we're really that far apart on the issue. What I am arguing, and what I think the vatican is arguing (I certainly could be wrong), is that claiming that any reasonable restriction on the sale of firearms is infringing on a natural right is too much. I would oppose any effort to ban firearms. I believe that would be a serious violation of a constitutional right. But I don't think that any limitation on my right to own a gun is wrong. I don't think that background checks, for example, are immoral or unconstitutional. Edited May 31, 2011 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306812828' post='2247975'] Wow for real? You know the Pope came out in support of the use of condoms too... if you believe the Media. Personally I don't and believe there is a more level head less liberal bias way of looking at what "the Vatican" says. Example. [b]"In a world marked by evil ... [u]the right of legitimate defense by means of arms exists.[/u] This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, f[u]or the common good of the family or of the civil community[/u]. [u]This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms[/u]". (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, "The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection" in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144). [/b] Of course there are limits, because there are licit ways to owe and accquire arms and there are illicit ways. But there does exist a right for a individual to bare arms in defense of his family. [/quote] YAY! Look at me! I can quote the parts that agree with me too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306813103' post='2247978'] YAY! Look at me! I can quote the parts that agree with me too!!! [/quote] That's nice, I did say there was a balance. There are licit ways to owe and accquire arms and there are illicit ways. The Vatican condemns illicit ways, as it should. But not out right. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306813254' post='2247981'] That's nice, I did say there was a balance. There are licit ways to owe and accquire arms and there are illicit ways. The Vatican condemns illicit ways, as it should. But not out right. Sorry. [/quote] yeah sorry, i'm in a bad mood tonight, my bad, i was taking it out on you, I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306812828' post='2247975'] Wow for real? You know the Pope came out in support of the use of condoms too... if you believe the Media. Personally I don't and believe there is a more level head less liberal bias way of looking at what "the Vatican" says. Example. [b]"In a world marked by evil ... [u]the right of legitimate defense by means of arms exists.[/u] This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, f[u]or the common good of the family or of the civil community[/u]. [u]This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms[/u]". (Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, "The International Arms Trade: an Ethical Reflection" in Origins 8 (24), 7 July 1994, p. 144). [/b] Of course there are limits, because there are licit ways to owe and accquire arms and there are illicit ways. But there does exist a right for a individual to bare arms in defense of his family. [/quote] Well I'm sure that Nihil doesn't agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) sorry, i couldn't hold it in. Edited May 31, 2011 by AudreyGrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306813384' post='2247983'] Well I'm sure that Nihil doesn't agree with this [/quote] I'm sure you have no idea what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 It's cool Amppax and sorry for the typo I should have said own not owe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306813421' post='2247986'] I'm sure you have no idea what you're talking about. [/quote] I'm pretty sure I do [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306809479' post='2247951'] It is unfortunate when well-meaning Vatican officials speak on topics that are not necessarily within their competency. It creates a lot of confusion. [/quote] [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306812432' post='2247969'] The competency of a priest tends to be in the liturgical, moral, and canonical areas. While gun control has a moral dimension, as I established, it also has legal and criminal aspects which many priests would not have studied or have any particular moral authority. [/quote] So if you are going to dismiss the opinion of a vatican official to the UN (assigned by the Holy Father) because you believe that the issue has aspects beyond the competency of priests, then you would logically dismiss any opinion from the Vatican that supports your position for the same reasons. This would be about the time to insert a funny picture with misspelled words Joey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306813711' post='2247991'] So if you are going to dismiss the opinion of a vatican official to the UN (assigned by the Holy Father) because you believe that the issue has aspects beyond the competency of priests, then you would logically dismiss any opinion from the Vatican that supports your position for the same reasons. [/quote] If an opinion expressed by a Vatican official lies outside his competency then it may be right or wrong, but that person, even if he is a bishop, enjoys no special teaching authority or protection from error with regards to those aspects outside his competency. For a more mundane example of what I'm talking about, if Cardinal Arinze writes out his personal favourite recipe for cake, I am perfectly free to say that he is mistaken in the ideal amount of flour, because he is not a chef, and he is probably not an authority on the issue of cake baking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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