Jaime Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306907504' post='2248605'] Nice, but I actually I asked what I did because you have repeatedly stated that what Archbishop Migliore stated is completely consistent with what the Church teaches. That statement seems to be stating more than just simply that his statements are not inconsistent with Church teaching. But rather that you believe what Archbishop Migliore stated is Church Teaching, being that you've stated that it is [b]completely consistent[/b] with Church teaching. So it's either binding or it isn't. [/quote] you really aren't understanding things KFC. I don't know if you're intentionally being obtuse Let's see if this helps. SSPX Bishop Williamson makes a statement that the Holocaust doesn't "really" exist. Now the Church doesn't have an official doctrine or dogma on the verification of the Holocaust but the stance of the Vatican is that it did exist and that it was really bad. He was sharing his own opinion .So SSPX Bishop Williamson was not being consistent with the teachings of the Church. Archbishop Migliore (who isn't SSPX and does believe in the historical veracity of the Holocaust) is making a statement under his capacityas a Vatican osbserver to the UN about gun control that is consistent with what the Holy Father has said and is consistent with what the Church teaches about violence. See what I did there? I think someone else is gettting a little help too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306928009' post='2248628'] [i]ahem[/i] [/quote] you sire, are clearly the king of trolls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306932388' post='2248641'] you sire, are clearly the king of trolls [/quote] just one more example of how KFC is mistaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 My view is whatever Aloysius has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306928600' post='2248630'] you really aren't understanding things KFC. I don't know if you're intentionally being obtuse Let's see if this helps. SSPX Bishop Williamson makes a statement that the Holocaust doesn't "really" exist. Now the Church doesn't have an official doctrine or dogma on the verification of the Holocaust but the stance of the Vatican is that it did exist and that it was really bad. He was sharing his own opinion .So SSPX Bishop Williamson was not being consistent with the teachings of the Church. Archbishop Migliore (who isn't SSPX and does believe in the historical veracity of the Holocaust) is making a statement under his capacityas a Vatican osbserver to the UN about gun control that is consistent with what the Holy Father has said and is consistent with what the Church teaches about violence. See what I did there?[/quote] You're making more of what the Archbishop stated than it was in actuality. His statement had no binding authority upon Catholics, his statement while not against Catholic was not Catholic teaching. Now lets more on so you can address the consequentialist argument about numbers of deaths by firearms. [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306928600' post='2248630'] I think someone else is gettting a little help too [/quote] What makes you love to mock so much? Is something troubling you on the inside Jaim[i]e[/i] do you need help? I don't understand why a grown man finds so much joy so often in bitter mockery and the tearing down of his fellow Catholics. That form of consent mockery is a sign of weakness on your part. Lack of actual confidence maybe? In yourself or what you sate? A grown man does not play child games so much unless he has self doubt and needs validation to boost his confidence. Edited June 1, 2011 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306932686' post='2248642'] just one more example of how KFC is mistaken [/quote] Winnie jokes certainly funnier than your lame insults. He by far is the better man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306932881' post='2248645'] What makes you love to mock so much? Is something troubling you on the inside Jaim[i]e[/i] do you need help? I don't understand why a grown man finds so much joy so often in bitter mockery and the tearing down of his fellow Catholics. That form of consent mockery is a sign of weakness on your part. Lack of actual confidence maybe? In yourself or what you sate? A grown man does not play child games so much unless he has self doubt and needs validation to boost his confidence. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306932881' post='2248645'] You're making more of what the Archbishop stated than it was in actuality. His statement had no binding authority upon Catholics, his statement while not against Catholic was not Catholic teaching. Now lets more on so you can address the consequentialist argument about numbers of deaths by firearms. [/quote] Actually I'm not making more of anything. You guys are being dismissive of his role and putting it in the same category as personal opinion. It is not. [quote] What makes you love to mock so much? Is something troubling you on the inside Jaim[i]e[/i] do you need help? I don't understand why a grown man finds so much joy so often in bitter mockery and the tearing down of his fellow Catholics. That form of consent mockery is a sign of weakness on your part. Lack of actual confidence maybe? In yourself or what you sate? A grown man does not play child games so much unless he has self doubt and needs validation to boost his confidence. [/quote] Well let's just say some of your posts are a lot more.... grammatically correct. And it's really noticeable. At least Nihil gives semi credit to the source (I guess making him a semi plagiarist?) The suggestion that you've received help isn't mocking. I guess you're denying that you've received help. I'll take you at your word. I'm sure it has the same amount of honesty and integrity as your declarations of leaving this place behind forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306933756' post='2248648'] Actually I'm not making more of anything. You guys are being dismissive of his role and putting it in the same category as personal opinion. It is not. [/quote] I'm not being dismissive of his office at all. I simply state what he has stated about gun control is not binding Church teaching. [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1306933756' post='2248648']Well let's just say some of your posts are a lot more.... grammatically correct. And it's really noticeable. At least Nihil gives semi credit to the source (I guess making him a semi plagiarist?) The suggestion that you've received help isn't mocking. I guess you're denying that you've received help. I'll take you at your word. I'm sure it has the same amount of honesty and integrity as your declarations of leaving this place behind forever. [/quote] I've not had any help from any one; and yes Jaim[i]e[/i] you are mocking me by suggesting I have help. That is now clear with the [i]grammatically correct[/i] comment. Is it possible for you to go 20 posts without mocking? Or are you such a slave to it that you are not? For someone who loves to fly his pride flag around based upon his intellectual prowess one would think you could do so without using simpleton comments to tear down the character of others. A true intellectual would stay on topic and focus on the topic. If you were truly confident about your stance or yourself you would not need and would not employ such tactics. Edited June 1, 2011 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Where's the full text of the original document? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Lol great argument for the past 2-3 pages! Internet Catholic debating at it's finest! Nothing like correcting error with the sledgehammer of charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1306932790' post='2248644'] My view is whatever Aloysius has to say. [/quote] Guns should be banned from all humans but given freely to the other oppressed members of the primate family, gorillas and orangutans. chimpanzees must apply for licences and will be considered on a case by case basis. wow, L_D, your view is pretty radical. nah, lol, jk... actually I had no intention of getting into this until L_D inflated my ego like that lol. here's my take. it would seem that Catholics are free to hold various opinions of the state's role in limiting firearms and the morality of civilians who are not in authority holding firearms for protection. of course, the statement to the UN clearly expresses the current view of the current magisterium, assuredly more than just the lone opinion of a single bishop, it's the current policy of the Church reflected not only in the diplomatic relations of the Vatican City State, but on the moral theology front as well. that said, nothing has bound Catholics to believe gun control to be the only way to approach evils associated with guns, and Catholcis may legitimately disagree on the issue. one shouldn't be dismissive of the Vatican view, but one shouldn't absolutize it and demand submission of mind and will from all Catholics (not accusing anyone of doing either of these things, I haven't really read through the whole thread anyway). I don't think it is immoral to own a firearm, and I don't think Catholics must think it immoral to own a firearm. Evil things can be done with a firearm, and one legitimate opinion of Catholics can be what the Vatican supports: governments trying to 'take away guns' as it were. But other Catholics may legitimately disagree. It is morally permissable to defend oneself and one's family with lethal force, even if that lethal force is with a firearm. But these particular policies being debated cannot be absolutized into one Catholic position or another; one must allow the opinions that the Church allows to exist within the Church, and on those opinions we can debate and certainly, as jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) did, point to statements of officials in the Church as positions that are exemplifying Christian virtue and are good Catholic positions, but in debates like this we must always avoid the tendency to insinuate even unintentionally that one opinion or another is not permitted to be held by a Catholic. I personally prefer gun control to take place on the lowest level of authority that I believe can be effective, with fathers (parents if you don't want to be sexist I suppose) keeping tight control over the family's guns so that they are used only for proper protection when absolutely necessary and for hunting when one is hungry for deer meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1306937238' post='2248660'] Guns should be banned from all humans but given freely to the other oppressed members of the primate family, gorillas and orangutans. chimpanzees must apply for licences and will be considered on a case by case basis. wow, L_D, your view is pretty radical. nah, lol, jk... actually I had no intention of getting into this until L_D inflated my ego like that lol. [/quote] Hey!! I was nodding my head in absolute agreement! :sadder: [quote name='Aloysius' timestamp='1306937238' post='2248660'] it would seem that Catholics are free to hold various opinions of the state's role in limiting firearms and the morality of civilians who are not in authority holding firearms for protection. of course, the statement to the UN clearly expresses the current view of the current magisterium, assuredly more than just the lone opinion of a single bishop, it's the current policy of the Church reflected not only in the diplomatic relations of the Vatican City State, but on the moral theology front as well. that said, nothing has bound Catholics to believe gun control to be the only way to approach evils associated with guns, and Catholcis may legitimately disagree on the issue. one shouldn't be dismissive of the Vatican view, but one shouldn't absolutize it and demand submission of mind and will from all Catholics (not accusing anyone of doing either of these things, I haven't really read through the whole thread anyway). I don't think it is immoral to own a firearm, and I don't think Catholics must think it immoral to own a firearm. Evil things can be done with a firearm, and one legitimate opinion of Catholics can be what the Vatican supports: governments trying to 'take away guns' as it were. But other Catholics may legitimately disagree. It is morally permissable to defend oneself and one's family with lethal force, even if that lethal force is with a firearm. But these particular policies being debated cannot be absolutized into one Catholic position or another; one must allow the opinions that the Church allows to exist within the Church, and on those opinions we can debate and certainly, as jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) did, point to statements of officials in the Church as positions that are exemplifying Christian virtue and are good Catholic positions, but in debates like this we must always avoid the tendency to insinuate even unintentionally that one opinion or another is not permitted to be held by a Catholic. I personally prefer gun control to take place on the lowest level of authority that I believe can be effective, with fathers (parents if you don't want to be sexist I suppose) keeping tight control over the family's guns so that they are used only for proper protection when absolutely necessary and for hunting when one is hungry for deer meat.[/quote] THIS! Edited June 1, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1306936239' post='2248655'] I'm not being dismissive of his office at all. I simply state what he has stated about gun control is not binding Church teaching. I've not had any help from any one; and yes Jaim[i]e[/i] you are mocking me by suggesting I have help. That is now clear with the [i]grammatically correct[/i] comment. Is it possible for you to go 20 posts without mocking? Or are you such a slave to it that you are not? For someone who loves to fly his pride flag around based upon his intellectual prowess one would think you could do so without using simpleton comments to tear down the character of others. A true intellectual would stay on topic and focus on the topic. If you were truly confident about your stance or yourself you would not need and would not employ such tactics. [/quote] Well it's interesting that suggesting you've had help is somehow mocking you or putting you down. Considering that Nihil has been getting it on threads when he has needed help, I wouldn't think that you would call him a simpleton. But whatever. Actually I'd be fine if you got 20 people helping you. It doesn't matter to me at all. So we're in agreement that what Migliore says is in fact consistent with Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) Gabriel Possenti, pray for us. “In a world marked by evil…the right of legitimate defense by means of arms exists. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right alone can justify the possession or transfer of arms.” JP II Edited June 1, 2011 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now