The Nuns' Story - A Hypothetical

[AccountDeleted]

NOTE: Sr Luke was NOT asked to do this under OBEDIENCE but given the choice to do it through humility and charity!!! This matters!


The other thread about the movie, The Nun's Story with Audrey Hepburn as Sr Luke, a nursing sister, got me thinking about a particular incident that occured during her nursing training.

Sr Luke's immediate superior (not the Mother General from the Motherhouse) made the request that Sr Luke purposely fail her exams for the nursing certificate in Tropical Medicine. The reason given was that one of the other sisters was struggling with the course and might not pass or do well. The superior told Sr Luke, who was a star pupil in the class, that this would be an opportunity for her to practice humility and charity towards the other sister. She told Sr Luke that she could then repeat the course the following year. She did not order her to do this under obedience but gave her the choice.

Sister Luke asked if the Motherhouse could be notified if she agreed to do this act, but she was told that this would not be true humility so, no, the Motherhouse would not know that she had failed on purpose. This meant that not only would the whole community think that Sr Luke had failed the exam, but also her family, including her father, who was a renowned doctor/surgeon.

When it came time for the oral exam, Sr Luke was asked the first question and debated mentally with herself about whether or not to give the wrong answer, but after hesitating, she eventually answered with all the correct answers and passed quite highly. The other sister also passed, but not with as high a mark.

The poll is to ask your opinion about whether the superior should even have put Sr Luke in this position or not (later she was told by another superior that the first one should not have done that to her). And should the superior have had to clear this with the Motherhouse first, or at least notified them if Sr Luke had agreed to the plan?

The second question asks you to choose whether or not, once the actual request had been made, Sr Luke should have complied with the request in the interests of humility and charity, or whether she made the right choice in the matter, considering not only her family and herself, but also the expense of the course in the first place and the waste of time in having to repeat something she knew inside and out. And whether asking her to do this would really have benefited the other sister, as the superior felt it would, or whether that sister should have had the humility herself to accept that she was not as good as Sr Luke?

The third question is the hypothetical - what do you think you would have done in similar circumstances? A tough one this, since times have changed and attitudes and also who knows for sure what one would do in a hypothetical, but that's the fun part.

I had other questions, but only three were allowed by the poll maker! If they come to my mind later, I will post them for general responses... or if anyone has their own questions about this situation... let's hear them.

Please note : this is bound to be a topic that creates dissenting views - and as this is the Vocation Station and not the Debate Table, please let's all be nice - no personal cricitcisms directed at those who disagree with your point of view and no snide comments directed at anyone in particular. We can all agree to disagree with charity - otherwise, as my mother used to say, "It will end in tears!"

Edited May 25, 2011 by nunsense

[faithcecelia]

Gosh, this is a hard one! I voted that no, she should not have been asked to fail, but having been asked, yes she should have failed it. However I said I could not say what I would do, certainly in the past I would have been disobedient and done my best to pass, but now I *hope* I would do what I was asked and choose to fail out of obedience, believing that God would use that obedience to his glory.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1306317251' post='2245700']
Gosh, this is a hard one! I voted that no, she should not have been asked to fail, but having been asked, yes she should have failed it. However I said I could not say what I would do, certainly in the past I would have been disobedient and done my best to pass, but now I *hope* I would do what I was asked and choose to fail out of obedience, believing that God would use that obedience to his glory.
[/quote]


My apologies!! I have modified the poll question - Sr Luke was not asked to do this under OBEDIENCE but as an act of humility and charity! She was given the choice. This is an important point.

[BarbTherese]

Tough questions, but really good ones, I thought, Nunsense. Posted before I saw the Post about failing the exam not being under obedience.

1. I dont think that her superior should have asked her to fail her exam. Both sisters were entered into the course - both had an obligation to do their best, to my mind - to the course instructors and any other relevant factors, as did the superior to a degree. After all, Sr. Luke's superior was asking her to be deceptive, to lie indirectly and that is sinful. Back in those days, any obligation to one's family ceases when one enters religious life and from postulancy onwards back then. Hence ideally Sr. Luke would have no obligation towards her father and his genius and his expectations of his daughter. If the other sister (not Sister Luke) would have problems if she failed the exam, then obviously she needed more training before going out into the field on a nursing ministry. This other sister should ideally accept the fact that she failed (if she had failed) and that she needed more training in humiliity and common sense. Her superior should have seen that too too my mind. If memory serves, and often it does not, but I think that other sistet had problems with jealousy of Sr. Luke and Sr Luke's superiority in her studies. There is the problem and demon that that other sister needed to face and work on. Rather, I think that problem and demon was indulged in asking Sr. Luke to fail and if she had failed.
No religious superior, absolutely no one, has any right to ask another to commit an act that is sinful. There is never an obligation on a person vowed to Obedience to obey if the matter is sinful.

2. One enters religious life to be a good religious. One's ministry in an active order is secondary to that and one goes where one's superior sends one and with whatever brief the superior gives to one in that ministry. That to my mind is religious obedience. If one's superior gives one an obedience that it will take humility and the virtue of religious obedience to fulfill, then ideally one takes the road of obedience and humility.However, since posting the answer to the question in the Poll, I have realized that what Sr. Luke was asked to do was to indirectly lie and sinful. I dont think that Sr. Luke even ideally should have failed. She should have pointed out to her superior that she was being asked under obedience to commit something sinful in indirectly lying.

3. Having said all that, if the call were mine to fail the exam - I have no idea what I would have done. I like to think that I would have done as my superior asked, but would I? I am not too sure on that point. I am more inclined, knowing me, to think that I would probably exploded into a burst of indignation and anger. And if I had realized that my superior was asking me to lie indirectly, I would have been more indignant and angry than ever.

Nowadays things have changed and I think (unsure again) that it is somewhere in the documents on religious life that superiors are to take into account the gifts and any other relevant factors of particular religious in making decisions about ministry etc. - and today superiors are more inclined to discuss things with a religious rather than order here and there etc. under Obedience. Sometimes of course this is not the best way to go in the situation and superiors make that call and religious are called to obey under their vow. Whatever, the Vow of Obedience is the Vow of Obedience that a religious makes. A sacrifice of her own free will to God's Will as expressed through the Rule and her superior - sin always excepted. When it comes down to the crunch, not always easy and can be very difficult, very.

[quote]believing that God would use that obedience to his glory.[/quote]

Amen to that! However, if I did something sinful under obedience and knew it, it would not give glory to God. If I did not realize what I was doing was against the moral law and deliberately fail an exam, it would give glory God. One cannot commit sin without knowing it - sin is to in some degree turn away from God. If I commit something objectively sinful without knowing it is sinful, it is a fault and an imperfection although not always, depends how serious the matter is objectively and other factors.

One cannot commit a sin even in the interests of so called humility and charity. There is no humility and charity in sin, we only think there is sometimes. We do or say something in the interests of the other that is not truthful for example. Our intentions are of the very best and entirely selfless (although not always), our moral theology needs brushing up a bit. But it can be a very hard call when our primary interest is the wellbeing of the other. And our God of Loving Compassion and Mercy knows this - that moral theology is an absolute minefield. He knows where our heart is precisely and what our true intentions are and the why of it all - even when we are unsure ourselvess.

Curly questions, Nunsense

Edited May 25, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

Barb - great points! I never even thought about it from the point of being asked to tell a lie - looked at from that perspective, then no, I simply could not fail the exam. I decided a few years ago that lying paid honour to the Prince of Lies whereas Our Lord is in the Incarnation of Truth, so after that I couldn't consciously lie ever again!

Seen in this light, my original answer to the third question, which I said was too tough to know, I now know I wouldn't do it - but would very courteously explain my reasoning to the superior. I don't think one would be asked to do such a thing today, but I was thinking that perhaps there might be a similar situation where one's conscience went against what was being asked, even though according to Vat 2 - a religious should not be asked to do something that is illegal, immoral or sinful. Superiors are still human beings though, and things happen that shouldn't - sad to say.

But thanks for bringing the fact to light about the lying - wow! I can't believe I didn't see it!

[Cherie]

I absolutely do not think the Superior should have asked Sr. Luke to fail the exam. For her to do so was an example of the fact that no Superior is perfect, they have a fallen human nature just like us, and they [i]will[/i] make mistakes. I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the Superior was asking Sr. Luke to lie, as one could fail the exam without giving wrong answers (e.g. "I decline to answer that question...") However, a Superior has a moral obligation to encourage a Sister's talents and help her use them for God's greater honor and glory. To treat a Sister in such a way would be a [i]huge[/i] breach of her role as Superior, in my opinion. I think it was sinful for the Superior to ask such a thing of Sr. Luke; in the movie, as I remember it anyway, it seemed to give the impression she did so because she (the Superior) had an attachment to the other Sister who was not as gifted as Sr. Luke. But even if it had nothing to do with any kind of attachment of the Superior to the other Sister, it was still very, very wrong and shows that she was not fit to be Superior if she was asking Sisters to do things like that. What a terrible person to be in charge of people!!! She would have needed much more training.

That being said, however, if I were asked to do so, I probably would have failed the exam. Although not asked in obedience, I would have considered it so and would have done it. It surely would have been difficult--I might have been reeling inside--but I would have done it out of obedience, trusting that God would bring some kind of good out of the situation.

[AccountDeleted]

Actually, the more I think about this, the tougher it gets for me. Although I think the superior was wrong in what she did, personally, I would not have been as attached to passing the exam as Sr Luke was because if I were in a convent, the religious life would be more important to me that the nursing. And waiting another year would not be the end of the world either. But in her case, she was obviously driven my her love for nursing, which seemed to be of more important to her than her religious life - even once she was in Africa. And Dr Fortunati was right, he questioned whether she would be able to endure once she was returned to Belgium because her whole heart was in Africa. The ironic thing is that after she left the convent, she never returned to Africa anyway.

One can never know all the motivations that drive another person, but I think in her case (from the book and the movie), nursing was more important to her than being a nun. I wonder why she even entered in the first place because she never really seemed to talk about being a nun with as much affection as she did about being a nurse, but her reasons for entering were never really covered in depth. Maybe once having entered, it was just against her nature to give up without a struggle - and she certainly struggled for a long time.

So, now I wonder if given the same choice, I would just have agreed to fail - not by lying but perhaps by refusing to take the exam - I doubt that the panel would appreciate being told, I refuse to answer for very long - they would probably just say - well, then you shoud leave if you aren't going to answer!

[Cherie]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306320033' post='2245711']
Actually, the more I think about this, the tougher it gets for me. Although I think the superior was wrong in what she did, personally, I would not have been as attached to passing the exam as Sr Luke was because if I were in a convent, the religious life would be more important to me that the nursing.
[/quote]

I agree

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306319233' post='2245709']
Barb - great points! I never even thought about it from the point of being asked to tell a lie - looked at from that perspective, then no, I simply could not fail the exam. I decided a few years ago that lying paid honour to the Prince of Lies whereas Our Lord is in the Incarnation of Truth, so after that I couldn't consciously lie ever again!

Seen in this light, my original answer to the third question, which I said was too tough to know, I now know I wouldn't do it - but would very courteously explain my reasoning to the superior. I don't think one would be asked to do such a thing today, but I was thinking that perhaps there might be a similar situation where one's conscience went against what was being asked, even though according to Vat 2 - a religious should not be asked to do something that is illegal, immoral or sinful. Superiors are still human beings though, and things happen that shouldn't - sad to say.

But thanks for bringing the fact to light about the lying - wow! I can't believe I didn't see it!
[/quote]


I didn't see it at first either, Nunsense. I had written the whole post when it suddenly occured to me and had to go back and do some editing.

I would like to say that I would very politely and gently inform my superior of the moral position of what she was asking me to do. I am afraid that honesty means and prompts that I probably would have hit the roof in no uncertain terms and especially if I realized her request was against the moral law. While I recognize and uphold the great beauty of and the supernatural nature of the call to religious life, I just dont have the stuff of which a good religious is made and if God wanted me in religious life, I would have had at very least the potential for it to develop.

Not being a religious, I am still called to be polite and gentle, considerate of the other and their humanity. Hence I fail at times on both accounts despite much hard work...... and still fail at 65 yrs! I take some comfort in that St. Peter was impetuous and outspoken and very quick with a sword by nature, which he overcame. I dont have all that much time left in my journey to overcome if I go by the lifespans in my maternal and paternal backgrounds. Although all things are possible to God. And all praise and thanksgiving to He who is Absolute Mercy and Compassion beyond our wildest imaginings - very thankfully!!!

Superiors are indeed always human and can make mistakes just like the rest of humanity and all of us.

God bless and good to catch up with you again....Barb

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306320033' post='2245711']

So, now I wonder if given the same choice, I would just have agreed to fail - not by lying but perhaps by refusing to take the exam - I doubt that the panel would appreciate being told, I refuse to answer for very long - they would probably just say - well, then you shoud leave if you aren't going to answer!
[/quote]


Very curly questions indeed!
I think that one could refuse to take the exam without moral problems.

[krissylou]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306320033' post='2245711']
One can never know all the motivations that drive another person, but I think in her case (from the book and the movie), nursing was more important to her than being a nun. I wonder why she even entered in the first place because she never really seemed to talk about being a nun with as much affection as she did about being a nurse, but her reasons for entering were never really covered in depth. Maybe once having entered, it was just against her nature to give up without a struggle - and she certainly struggled for a long time.

[/quote]

My guess is, this was pretty common. I remember one of my high school teachers (and I'm guessing she would have entered just barely before Vatican II) mentioning offhandedly at one point that as a girl she decided she wanted to be a teacher and so after high school she went off to the convent.

Now, this was in passing, not a vocation talk. And whatever reason she had for entering, probably at about age 17, isn't a full explanation of why she's stayed for the past 50 years -- ESPECIALLY since she was a generation younger than Sister Luke and saw a LOT of her peers leaving. Etc etc etc.

But still. Someone entering the DSMME or Nashville now will likely expect to spend many of her years in a classroom, but I don't think anyone would describe it as "I decided I wanted to be a teacher, so off to the convent!" even in the 15-second, offhand version.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1306319291' post='2245710']
I absolutely do not think the Superior should have asked Sr. Luke to fail the exam. For her to do so was an example of the fact that no Superior is perfect, they have a fallen human nature just like us, and they [i]will[/i] make mistakes. I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the Superior was asking Sr. Luke to lie, as one could fail the exam without giving wrong answers (e.g. "I decline to answer that question...") However, a Superior has a moral obligation to encourage a Sister's talents and help her use them for God's greater honor and glory. To treat a Sister in such a way would be a [i]huge[/i] breach of her role as Superior, in my opinion. I think it was sinful for the Superior to ask such a thing of Sr. Luke; in the movie, as I remember it anyway, it seemed to give the impression she did so because she (the Superior) had an attachment to the other Sister who was not as gifted as Sr. Luke. But even if it had nothing to do with any kind of attachment of the Superior to the other Sister, it was still very, very wrong and shows that she was not fit to be Superior if she was asking Sisters to do things like that. What a terrible person to be in charge of people!!! She would have needed much more training.

That being said, however, if I were asked to do so, I probably would have failed the exam. Although not asked in obedience, I would have considered it so and would have done it. It surely would have been difficult--I might have been reeling inside--but I would have done it out of obedience, trusting that God would bring some kind of good out of the situation.
[/quote]


[quote] I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the Superior was asking Sr. Luke to lie, as one could fail the exam without giving wrong answers (e.g. "I decline to answer that question...") [/quote]


Good point and a way round a curly moral situation, I thought.

[quote]That being said, however, if I were asked to do so, I probably would have failed the exam. Although not asked in obedience, I would have considered it so and would have done it. It surely would have been difficult--I might have been reeling inside--but I would have done it out of obedience, trusting that God would bring some kind of good out of the situation.[/quote]

Another good point especially "trusting that God would bring some kind of good out of the situation" - because I think that the superior and the other sister had issues they needed to face and work through. As do we all including Sr. Luke, who probably was more focused in nursing than on religious life per se - although she did try very hard to marry them but just could not detach herself from her nursing.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' timestamp='1306323247' post='2245728']

Another good point especially "trusting that God would bring some kind of good out of the situation" - because I think that the superior and the other sister had issues they needed to face and work through. As do we all including Sr. Luke, who probably was more focused in nursing than on religious life per se - although she did try very hard to marry them but just could not detach herself from her nursing.
[/quote]


Yes, and it does make me wonder what would have happened if Sr Luke had been able to see the 'supernatural' side of what was happening. Even though the superior might have been wrong (my opinion), God does write straight with crooked lines. Perhaps if Sr Luke could have taken this challenge as a way to die to self and respond to God (not easy, I admit), she might even have set an example to the superior and the other sister, who could have been humbled by her trust in Him. After all, Jesus did tell us that 'the spirit is everything, the flesh is nothing" but it is always so hard to see His hand in things that don't go in accordance with our own desires (I know I need to learn this lesson myself). And if she had been able to overcome her self this time, perhaps the later challenges might have gotten easier for her as well. Who knows at which point along the road we have taken the wrong path?? He gives us chance after chance though, so obviously it wasn't this one incident that determined the final outcome for her, but if she could have complied, it might just have been the beginning of surrendering her will, which she seemed to think was the hardest thing of all - for me this always means a lack of trust in Him.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1306322747' post='2245724']
My guess is, this was pretty common. I remember one of my high school teachers (and I'm guessing she would have entered just barely before Vatican II) mentioning offhandedly at one point that as a girl she decided she wanted to be a teacher and so after high school she went off to the convent.

Now, this was in passing, not a vocation talk. And whatever reason she had for entering, probably at about age 17, isn't a full explanation of why she's stayed for the past 50 years -- ESPECIALLY since she was a generation younger than Sister Luke and saw a LOT of her peers leaving. Etc etc etc.

But still. Someone entering the DSMME or Nashville now will likely expect to spend many of her years in a classroom, but I don't think anyone would describe it as "I decided I wanted to be a teacher, so off to the convent!" even in the 15-second, offhand version.
[/quote]

Back in the years of Sr Luke - a Catholic young woman either married or entered the convent. Although it is a generalization and there would have been exceptions, those were the expectations - no going off nursing and earning a wage and living on your own in an apartment. It was done of course, but there was something upsokenly sort of not quite right about it. Questionable. If you did not want to marry nor enter a convent, there was something not right. I think Sr Luke was absolutely totally dedicated nurse and perhaps marriage to her presented a distraction from nursing and entering the convent that had a nursing ministry was a way of giving her whole self to nursing.

Personally, I dont think Sr Luke wanted to be a religious as much as she wanted to be a nurse. God indeed does write straight with crooked lines. Perhaps He only wanted Sr. Luke in religious life for a time.
Lots to talk about in Heaven!

Edited May 25, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

Another thought just occured to me - in the scene where she is giving a drink of water to a patient and the bell rings, she is supposed to stop everything and respond, but she always found this very hard because the nurse in her wanted to put the needs of the person above those of the bell (which was supposed to be the voice of God for her).

I know the nurse in her was fighting the nun, but I also wonder if she was thinking of Jesus' statement that 'whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me" and wanted to serve them as she would Jesus? I think it must be incredibly tough to be in an active apostolate when there is a conflict like this. It's easier to be Mary than Martha sometimes!!