DeoOptimoMaximo Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='Catherine Therese' timestamp='1306217566' post='2245286'] I saw it last year, not long after I arrived at my complete 'yes'. I'm afraid that, whilst I enjoyed most of it, the end was profoundly upsetting for me. It really troubled me that a fully professed sister who had been living her spousal relationship with Christ for some 20 years could walk away from that vow. (She got a dispensation, but it still troubled me.) Actually upon reflection I think the film painted her life as very much a well-intentioned but human endeavour, rather than a human response to a Divine call. So I suppose its not all that suprising that she left. Nevertheless, it was still upsetting. [/quote] I loved the movie when I watched it this past semester at the seminary, but the ending blew me away! I still can't believe she left!!!! I remember the feelings of pain sadness, and anger that washed over me, when I saw her walk out the door! It reminded me of all those who left during the 60's-70's. Still a beautiful movie, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 ALRIGHT. lol my question is pertaining to detatchment. I remember (ive seen this movie thousands of times. i love audrey h.'s skillz the the art of acting) that there was, not only physical detachment, but detatchment from memories. i remember a certain scene when she was still in the tree house recovering and one of the sisters walked in and started talking about how she had a tree house like this when she was younger, but she stopped herself. also, when sr.luke was in formation and they were talking about detatching from memories, etc. the question is in religious life do you detatch from memories to the point of completely shunning them from your mind like we see in the scene in the tree house? if so, HOW? i mean the human mind never forgets anything. it just pushes it to the side for a bit. idk. i'm a bit confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='the171' timestamp='1306291462' post='2245600'] ALRIGHT. lol my question is pertaining to detachment. I remember (i've seen this movie thousands of times. i love Audrey h.'s skills the the art of acting) that there was, not only physical detachment, but detachment from memories. i remember a certain scene when she was still in the tree house recovering and one of the sisters walked in and started talking about how she had a tree house like this when she was younger, but she stopped herself. also, when sr.luke was in formation and they were talking about detaching from memories, etc. the question is in religious life do you detach from memories to the point of completely shunning them from your mind like we see in the scene in the tree house? if so, HOW? i mean the human mind never forgets anything. it just pushes it to the side for a bit. idk. i'm a bit confused. [/quote] I think that it was [i]talking [/i]about the memories, not thinking about them. I don't know if this is enforced now. Some people in formation might reminisce about skiing in Switzerland or walking the Great Wall of China, or other memories of a life of wealth and privilege which Sr. Luke had--for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='the171' timestamp='1306291462' post='2245600'] ALRIGHT. lol my question is pertaining to detatchment. I remember (ive seen this movie thousands of times. i love audrey h.'s skillz the the art of acting) that there was, not only physical detachment, but detatchment from memories. i remember a certain scene when she was still in the tree house recovering and one of the sisters walked in and started talking about how she had a tree house like this when she was younger, but she stopped herself. also, when sr.luke was in formation and they were talking about detatching from memories, etc. the question is in religious life do you detatch from memories to the point of completely shunning them from your mind like we see in the scene in the tree house? if so, HOW? i mean the human mind never forgets anything. it just pushes it to the side for a bit. idk. i'm a bit confused. [/quote] I think the emphasis on "interior silence" in order to commune with God is related to this. In the book, Sr. Luke, whose father is a doctor, notes at this point that one of her professors, when teaching anatomy and physiology, stated that "even a saint" cannot say an Ave Maria without SOME association creeping in. Memories of a previous life obviously would be a distraction, but IMO it is unrealistic to think that they can be entirely abolished. In another part of the book, it is noted that, in [to quote the book] a "mixed order" -- by which I assume active/contemplative is meant, getting a correct balance between the two aspects is very difficult. Sr. Luke, IMO, is excessively scrupulous in trying to live the Rule. Various superiors tell her so: in the film, the Mother at the insane asylum tells her "to bend or she will break", and Sr. Luke herself says she has an "all or nothing" personality. Her main battles seem not to be with pride, but with obedience, as defined by her community. Interestingly, the community still exists, based in Belgium. A picture of a recent Mother Superior shows a woman in what might be a partial habit, but possibly simply a dark business suit, so it seems that they have radically reformed the externals, at least, since V2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) [quote][b]Quoting Antigonas Post #22[/b]: Amazingly, the Catholic Church was not happy at all that the film was made, although it actually resulted in a wave of vocations, and was the most popular film Audrey Hepburn ever made. A superior of Habets', whose name in religion was Sister Mary Xavierine, called the film "a desecration". At the time, laicization was extremely difficult. [I was suprised, at first, at the number of Phatmassers who have made repeated attempts to enter religious life. In the book, Sr. Luke has to promise, when she leaves, that she "will never wear the habit of religion again" and I thought this was usual][/quote] It is not surprising possibly that The Church was not happy about the life - it was very revealing of convent life both objectiveky and from a personal angle in some the various characters, noteably of course, Sr. Luke (Audrey Hepburn). I was in my young teens at the time I saw it and until I saw it although I wanted to enter monastic life, knew nothing at all really about the life. "The Nun's Story" filled me in on much I then thought. I certainly was not deterred from entering the life through seeing the movie - I was more delighted about it than ever. I regarded Sr Luke with a degree of horror that she could enter and be professed and then leave. All that was depicted in the movie, in my young years, delighted my romantic heart and concepts. I tended to ponder the struggles Sr Luke had with that young, quite immature, romantic heart. With number of vocations, I think it is a question not of how many who enter, but how many who enter proceed to final vows. I think that possibly and my thoughts only, that The Church may not have been happy about the movie because it was so revealing on different levels about religious life and at a time when it was still a very much hidden life from public view, even Catholic view - and even in the active life and in all aspects of the life -and also it was about a religious who left the life and was laicized. I am not sure, but I think it came out just prior to V2. [quote][u]Quoting Antigonas[/u] - Sr. Luke, IMO, is excessively scrupulous in trying to live the Rule. Various superiors tell her so: in the film, the Mother at the insane asylum tells her "to bend or she will break", and Sr. Luke herself says she has an "all or nothing" personality. Her main battles seem not to be with pride, but with obedience, as defined by her community. Interestingly, the community still exists, based in Belgium. A picture of a recent Mother Superior shows a woman in what might be a partial habit, but possibly simply a dark business suit, so it seems that they have radically reformed the externals, at least, since V2.[/quote] There used to be in religious life sometimes what was commonly known as a"Living Rule" and it was said that if theRule was ever destroyed, one could re-write it by observing the behaviour of religious that were Living Rules. To be a living rule, was a compliment in religious life and to be one was a rarity, it was almost regarded as a type of sainthood. I think that in religious life, if you do not learn to bend now and then and be loving and accepting of others with all and any faults and foibles, rather than despite same - if you cannot be accepting of yourself with your faults and foibles, then religious life will be hard going for oneself and you just might make it hard going on others. Be a little painful to live with day in and day out. If one cannot bend, then I think a sense of humour and the funny may go out the window. And to live with oneself and others, one needs a sense of humour and the funny. I like to think that I might have made a good and usefu,lat times anyway, Carmelite. St. Teresa wrote in her rule that no games were to be played at recreation. That The Lord would send amusing sisters into the community to provide entertainment at recreation. I guess they could have put me in a closet and taken me out only at recreation [quote]the question is in religious life do you detatch from memories to the point of completely shunning them from your mind like we see in the scene in the tree house? if so, HOW? i mean the human mind never forgets anything. it just pushes it to the side for a bit. idk. i'm a bit confused.[/quote] Religious life way back then really did need an overhaul. After all, one can be very wealthy and yet be detached from wealth. Detachment has a positive aspect that is to cling to God. It doesn't mean that one has nothing, or doesn't necessarily mean that, detachment means that one's affections are not invested fully in whatever, rather in God and His Will. In religious life way back then -there were lots of strange concepts and practises and over emphasis on negatives - to my way of thinking. Some practices no one knew any longer why things were done that way and sometimes quite almost illogical things (to my mind again) - it was tradition and tradition never seemed to need areason. It was its own reason. It simply was and one obeyed. Edited May 25, 2011 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherie Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 [quote name='the171' timestamp='1306291462' post='2245600'] the question is in religious life do you detatch from memories to the point of completely shunning them from your mind like we see in the scene in the tree house? if so, HOW? i mean the human mind never forgets anything. it just pushes it to the side for a bit. idk. i'm a bit confused. [/quote] I agree with Yaatee; the point was not so much [i]thinking[/i] about memories, but talking about them. I am sure most religious communities do not practice this to the degree shown in the movie anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Communities vary greatly on this matter of memories. At two Carmels, we discussed our past quite freely and shared our interests with each other. At the other two, we were told not to talk about our past, and at the strictest one, during Recreation we were not to discuss our past, our past jobs or our current work with each other. We were also not to discuss dreams or food preferences. One of the elderly nuns had been in the army and I was fascinated but she never told me this, I heard about it from another sister - and I have no idea how she found out! At that convent, our conversations consisted of discussing the weather, animals we had seen recently (birds mainly) or topics of general interest that were introduced by the Prioress, such as the upcoming visit by the relics of St Therese or some other event that she told us about. I often slipped up and started to talk about something from my past, but would catch myself and stop. But at the other Carmels, we shared our lives and our family stories, and at Christmas we even visited each other in our cells and showed each other photos of our family that they had sent to us during the year. This made us feel very much like an extended family as one person's family became the community's family too. On my clothing day, my Novice Mistress had even composed a song for me, all about things I liked such as horses and Diet Coke, set to the tune of Home on the Range, and a group of the sisters sang it for me. They wouldn't have known about any of this if I hadn't discussed my past and my preferences! As to whether or not all memories can be stopped voluntarily... there is an old Zen philosophy that if you want to make a person think of a monkey, tell him he must not think of a monkey. Telling a person that they can't have any memories only makes that harder. I think the trick to avoid thinking about memories (for example, unpleasant ones) is not to make the effort to stop thinking, but to think of something else. If I find my mind wandering in places I dont' want it to go then I start thinking about Jesus or saying a short prayer over and over again. If the mind is busy with one thought, it can't really hold onto another one, even though thoughts are so fast that it seems like we might hold two conflicting thoughts at the same time - they really are sequential. The Jesus Prayer is a good one to use, but so is the Hail Mary or Hail Holy Queen, or even humming a favourite hymn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) The movie came out in 1959. In the "old days" I guess the numbers who progressed to solemn or final profession was rather the way it was when I was in nursing school -- it was thought perfectly acceptable that a third would drop out, sometimes even more. One did not have to have especially high academic status to enter nursing school. But it took BOTH brains and brawn to remain, and not all applicants [probationers we were called] had both. <BR><BR>But in those days, especially in Catholic countries, if one wanted to enter either teaching or nursing, you almost HAD to be in a religious order. We forget just how recent the "feminist revolution" is. Even Oxford and Cambridge, which had women's colleges did not award their graduates degrees until the 1930s, even though they studied the same curriculum and passed the same exams as men. Edited May 25, 2011 by Antigonos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MargaretTeresa Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 I have seen most of it. Wonderful movie...although I'd like to bash that Mother over the head a la DS and the Canadienne.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the171 Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Thank you all very much. All of your answers have really explained detatchment to me. Especially nunsense because I'm discerning Carmel. I'm actually discerning with a Carmel in my state that sounds more like the ones you described first. They definitely emphasize the family aspect of Carmel. Thank you all once again. Benedicite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWIE Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 ["In this House of Brede" is a more realistic movie. At least it has some substance to it. There is another set of CD's called "Brides of Christ" which also is revealing of the life.[b][/b]size="5"][/size][font="Book Antiqua"][/font] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 (edited) Here is a photo of the 'real' Sr Luke [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cLLO__xP3bw/TZnJ7EiFadI/AAAAAAAAAME/w0brAvAA2Rk/s1600/BBC1_GDC1RCFU4.1%252BFCOM_habets.jpg.275.jpg[/img] and a link to a review of the book (scroll down the page - it is after the book about Ahab's Wife. At the end there are several lovely photos from the film. And if you are interested in more photos of Marie Louise Habets... I searched using the words photo marie lousie habets and found some interesting ones. The link I used was too long to post here... I am on dial-up so couldn't take time to look at all the photos but there seem to be some good ones. Edited May 26, 2011 by nunsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerCatholic Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Interesting photo, I wonder where the blogger found it. I had read that the order Marie Louise Habets entered was called the Sisters of Charity of Jesus and Mary, which is the habit of the sister shown below. It looks different from the habit in the other photo, maybe they modified it for the Congo.... [img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2472901756_666fe19268.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaatee Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 That is her community. They had a typical Belgian sort of 'floating guimpe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Well, I certainly can't guarantee that was a photo of her. It might have been a Novice photo of her, or perhaps they did do something different for the Congo, but according to this article - it doesn't seem so... the interesting thing is that they will rent out habits![url="http://www.archief-museum.zvl.org/eng/archief_divers.html"] [/url] [url="http://www.archief-museum.zvl.org/eng/archief_divers.html"]http://www.archief-museum.zvl.org/eng/archief_divers.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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