Catholic Teaching On Ghosts

[Nihil Obstat]

[color="#000000"][url="http://irenaeusgsaintonge.blogspot.com/2011/05/catholic-teachings-on-ghosts.html"]A look at the concept of ghosts from a Catholic perspective:[/url]

[b]Introduction[/b]

The subject of ghosts and the paranormal is one that interested me as a kid, but as I grew older I began to doubt how well the entire subject fit within a traditional Catholic perspective. Common sense certainly seems to allow that some sort of paranormal entities could exist, and could interact with us (after all, for God all things are possible), however the Christian eschatological sense seems to introduce some doubt. We wonder what reasons God may have for allowing a deceased human soul to return to our world, or more troubling still, a damned soul. Such questions require first a strong faith in the teaching authority of the Church, and second an unshakable belief in God's goodness, even when we may not understand His actions.
I will begin by quoting a passage from Exorcism and the Church Militant by Rev. Thomas J. Euteneuer. While I'm very troubled by the rumours I've heard regarding his conduct, his information is still solid and may be accepted regardless of his own difficulties.


[b]Exorcism and the Church Militant[/b]
Pages 103-104:
"Most pagan societies believe in the separation of the soul from the body and an afterlife. This includes the idea that souls may "linger" after death due to "unfinished business" such as unbroken attachments to the earth, to unreconciled relationships or to the affairs of men that supposedly last beyond the grave. In this view, the souls can be benign or malicious; often pagan traditions of ancestor worship or appeasement of the dead are the result of these beliefs.
"The Roman Catholic belief is categorically different from these pagan beliefs, however. The theological tradition concerning souls in purgatory is based on the belief that bodily death constitutes a definitive entrance into an afterlife which is either a temporal purification followed by heaven, or an eternal damnation. Thus, for Catholics there is no such thing as a "lingering" or "wandering" soul who has "not cut the bonds of this earthly life." For Catholics, there is another way to explain these things than the standard pagan reasoning.
"A strong theological tradition recognizes that deceased human souls can and do visit the living after death for various reasons and in various modes. It is clear that this is only done "according to the disposition of Divine providence" and not as a common occurrence. St. Thomas Aquinas says that "separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men...", and this can be both for "intimidation" (i.e., damned souls) or for "instruction" (i.e., redeemed souls). He also claims that souls may appear to others "in order to seek our suffrages" (i.e., souls in purgatory). Such apparitions can also be due to a special intervention into the human sphere by a demon creating a deception or an angel appearing in human form to communicate a message.
"Some people call these various apparitions "ghosts." In light of the tradition above, these can be either disembodied human souls or evil spirits. In Catholic thought, however, if such appearances happen, they are always limited and marked by truth, simplicity and utter clarity to distinguish a holy apparition from a demonic one, which is always marked by confusion, discord, chaos, fear and anxiety. Thus, there is no strictly theological basis for believing that there are souls "wandering" around in the world communicating with loved ones, or "haunting" places, but Catholics do believe that the deceased can appear after death in a strictly limited fashion and only with God's permission for some greater reason.
"What has been absolutely forbidden by the Church from the beginning is the attempt to conjure deceased souls from the grave or to communicate with the dead, a dark art known as necromancy. This prohibition is from Scripture. In the Christian tradition, we honor the dead and pray for them- we even consider ourselves in communion with them- but we do not conjure them up or attempt to dialogue with them. All such practices open us up to demonic deception and infestation."
Rev. Euteneuer goes on to speculate as to whether or not a damned human soul could possess a living person in the same way that a demonic entity is able to do, and I will revisit this later.
I think we can condense his answer into a few key points.

[list]

[*]Judgement after death is immediate.
[*]God can allow, for various reasons, a deceased human soul to interact with living beings.
[*]These scenarios should be considered irregular and rare.
[*]We are not to seek out deceased souls with satanic magic.

[/list]
It will be useful from here, I believe, to glance at Church teaching on the immediacy of judgement after death.

[b]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/b]
1021-1022

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately,-or immediate and everlasting damnation.
So we can conclude from these that if we living beings find ourselves interacting with a deceased human entity, this entity has already faced its judgement. Therefore it may be a damned soul, in which case it may seek to cause us grave harm, or it may be a saved soul. Of the souls of the saved, it may be undergoing purgation, in which case it is in need of our prayers, or it may be a member of the Church Triumphant, and therefore be able to intercede for us with the power of the saints.

We can conclude now that ghostly/paranormal activity is a possibility from a Catholic point of view, and it would be good to examine this activity in greater depth.


[b]Hauntings[/b]

From my previous reading of anecdotal 'evidence' [read: ghost stories], I think we can safely divide paranormal activity into four main categories. These categories are:

[list=1]

[*]Good entities
[*]Evil entities
[*]Poltergeists
[*]Benign/neutral haunted houses
[*]We will examine each in turn.

[/list]
[b]Good Entities[/b]:
I think we may conclude safely that these are the least problematic of any category of paranormal activity. These must be either souls in purgatory or in heaven, because a damned soul would be entirely unable to do good works. For a soul in purgatory, God may allow its temporary return in order to somehow right any damage it caused in its life. A soul undergoing purgation would also be especially inclined to ask for prayers. We can only speculate on particulars, and of course we must remember that it is not for us to understand the will of God. A hypothetical scenario which occurred to me is that of a father who became estranged from his son, and returned briefly after death to offer and receive healing and forgiveness. I recall Fr. Gabriele Amorth writing about a nun who was visited by a recently deceased member of the same order who begged for her prayers, and eventually her prayers led to the deceased nun's completion of purgation. However, I cannot find this story to reproduce it here in more detail, because I don't have the time to reread both his books.
A soul already experiencing the beatific vision may also be sent by God, in a similar manner to the angels, in order that it may intercede for us in some way. These actions would be directed somehow towards the benefits of we who are living, ultimately to inspire or strengthen our faith and resolve. We know that they have no need to complete any 'mission'. They cannot have 'unfinished business', because they have been perfected and are conformed to Christ. Maybe we can even consider the same father from our previous hypothetical who, having finished his purgation, returns to console his son during a crisis of faith later in life.

[b]Evil Entities[/b]:
This category is also simple. We can quite safely say that if a deceased human entity intends harm for we who are living, then that soul must be damned. Souls in purgatory are unable to sin, and we need not even mention those in heaven. However, the souls of the damned live eternally in their sin; they know nothing but. Were a damned soul to temporarily visit the world of the living, we should conclude that it has been sent by Satan, but permitted by God, in the same way as demonic activity. We know also that these souls remain damned, as their judgement is final and eternal.
The extent of the influence of these damned souls may certainly be debated. It is, of course, exceedingly difficult for us, with our limited perspective, to distinguish between a damned human and a demon. This is simply because demons are wicked liars and would not hesitate to pose as a human if they perceived any benefit in doing so. Likewise it is reasonable that a damned soul might imitate a demon in hopes of intimidating a member of the living. Later in this post I will speculate further on this subject.

[b]Poltergeists[/b]:
Poltergeist activity, along with so-called haunted houses are far more complex questions than simple good or evil entities. From stories we hear that poltergeists tend to be attached to a particular person, often an adolescent. These poltergeists tend to be mischievous, but mainly benign.
According to Fr. Herbert Thurston, SJ, (Ghosts and Poltergeists, page 2)
"A poltergeist is simply a racketing spirit, which in almost all cases remains invisible, but which manifests its presence by throwing things about, [...] in the course of which the human spectators are occasionally hit by flying objects, but as a rule suffer no serious injury."
He says further that particular aspects of the poltergeist are,
"the invisibility of the agents, the sporadic and temporary nature of the manifestations, and notably their dependence upon the presence of some particular individual- usually a young person and often a child- who must be assumed to possess strange, if unconscious, mediumistic powers."
Interestingly, Fr. Thurston seems to imply here that poltergeist activity is caused by "mediumistic" [psychic?] powers on the account of the central individual. Maybe in the case of poltergeists we are dealing with unconscious psychic powers of 'sensitive' individuals.

In fact, Fr. Amorth's treatment of the subject does not rule out this possibility. (An Exorcist, More Stories, page 160-161)
"Charismatics and Sensitives
"I mention both although we mistakenly tend to lump them together as one.

Charismatics have received a particular gift, or charism, from the Holy Spirit, which is to be used for the good of the entire Church, and not for their own personal benefit,
Sensitives, by nature, have higher levels of sensitivity (we often refer to a sixth sense) and are able to perceive things that cannot be detected by most individuals."
Certainly, therefore, we must admit that some individuals have particular gifts or attributes which are especially inclined towards the paranormal. I recall Fr. Amorth writing elsewhere about poltergeist activity, but again, I'm unable to track it down at the moment. His treatment of the phenomenon was, as I recall, more or less identical to the quote above from Fr. Thurston.
On the subject of Poltergeists, I will let the conclusions of Fr. Thurston speak in my place.
"Although, as the reader will infer, I am myself quite satisfied of the reality of many of these poltergeist phenomena, notable in such a case as that of the Ketkar household at Poona, I have no thought of contesting the fact that nothing more purposeless- one might say, nothing more childish- could be imagined than these incomprehensible displays of some Puck-like spook bent on every exasperation form of mischief. In the words of Alice in Wonderland, "he only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases." Nevertheless, these phenomena seem to me to have their value as a proof of the existence of a world of spiritual agencies, not cognoscible directly by our sense perceptions. For the crude materialist such incidents must surely be very difficult to explain away. The stones have fallen, for they are solid and still to be seen; but who has thrown them? Crockery, chimney ornaments and glasses have been smashed, heavy pieces of furniture have been moved, pictures have jumped from the walls, but witnesses declare that they stood by and saw that no human hand came near them. Now it would be a very violent supposition to maintain that any human being is so psychically endowed that by taking thought he can make material objects external to himself fly about in eccentric paths, that he can move furniture, spirit away the contents of receptacles closed and locked, or set a curtain on fire by merely looking at it. What the nature of the agency is that performs these marvels we are not called upon to determine. Divines of all creeds in the seventeenth century were satisfied that such alarming phenomena could only be the work of the devil. I am not prepared to declare that they were wrong, though this solution cannot, I submit, be treated as a manner of certainty. But, be this as it may, we may reasonably call upon materialists who deny the possibility of miracles either to provide a physical explanation of these extraordinary poltergeist disturbances, or to submit some reasonable ground for rejecting the mass of evidence by which their reality has been established.
"It may be admitted in any case that nothing could be conceived more purposeless or irrational than the vagaries of the poltergeist. None the less, it seems impossible to reject the evidence which for so many centuries and in every country of the world attests the sporadic occurrence of such phenomena. To attribute them all to diabolic agency is difficult, if only because we credit the enemy of mankind with a higher level of intelligence than that which seems to prompt these outbreaks. Experience has shown that the exorcism and comminatory rites of the Church are not always, or indeed generally, effective in putting and end to poltergeist disturbances, though they sometimes produce a temporary mitigation. On the other hand, I have come across a few cases in which a special novena or the saying of Mass seems definitely to have got rid of the nuisance."
I will submit then, tentatively yet in line with Fr. Thurston's thoughts on the matter, that poltergeist activity is indeed not otherworldly, at least not in a direct sense. In more unusual poltergeist cases which do not follow the common script, such as cases where prayers of exorcism are effective, where serious physical or spiritual harm occurs, or where evidence of witchcraft presents itself, it is rather easier to infer the presence of demonic activity. If we are to accept my conclusions, then we will reject these as being not true poltergeist activity, but rather a demon masquerading as a harmless, though annoying poltergeist.
What then would cause poltergeist activity? Referring back to Fr. Amorth I will suggest that, while a charismatic may have particular preternatural spiritual gifts, a young person afflicted with poltergeist activity has been chosen by God for spiritual trials. I will suggest that the charismatic and the focal point of a poltergeist both have particularly a keen and abnormal (yet likely unconscious) affinity for the spiritual world. While the charismatic may use this affinity for discernment, etc., the focal point of a poltergeist creates a sort of disturbance in the physical world due to his unconscious link to the spiritual world.
As for the reasons for this, we can only speculate. As Fr. Thurston mentions, poltergeist activity is mystifyingly purposeless. Maybe we can compare it to an infant not yet aware of his control over his own body, who thrashes and moves without really understanding how he does it. The mediumistic individual may have a poorly-understood access to the spiritual aspects of Creation, yet does not realize or understand how to control his particular form of control.
We recall also that poltergeist activity seems to be more common in young people. I am reminded of Jesus' call to "let the little children come to Me", and that we must be like children to attain salvation. Children are unique and somewhat anomalous in a very dark world. Maybe they are more open to these things that we do not understand.

[b]Benign/Neutral 'Haunted Houses'
[/b]I finally have come to the last category of paranormal activity, and that is the phenomenon of the classic "haunted house." In my opinion this is the trickiest category, and one about which I still have no firm conclusions. We can conclude surely that some kind of haunting of buildings does exist. We know, of course, that inanimate objects may be infested by the demonic. This could be from curses, or from previous satanic activity, or (I think it is reasonable to assume) prolonged contact with someone severely afflicted by the demonic.
However, the demonic infestation of objects does not explain the 'classic' haunted house. These stories seem to have a few characteristics that are much more reminiscent of poltergeists than demons. Generally according to these stories, the house will remain 'haunted' over a long period of time. This seems to conflict with what we so far have believed of deceased human souls, namely that they are only allowed to return for brief periods. (See, for instance, Summa Theologica Supplementum, Q. 69 Article 3) We may answer this by remembering that God's time is not our time, so what seems to be a perpetually haunted house is still only a temporary state for the deceased soul.
More troubling with the cases of haunted houses is the apparent purposelessness, like that of poltergeists, which sheds more doubt on the whole subject. If God allows a soul to return to this world, we know it must be for some greater purpose. In the case of haunted houses, it appears more often than not that the entity does not interact with any living parties
I have heard two complementary explanations for the presence of haunted houses that I will share now. The first is that the classic haunted house is inhabited by the soul of a person in purgatory, and that their presence in the world of the living is to obtain our prayers for its salvation. By our awareness of its presence, we may be called to offer prayers for its purification.
The second explanation addresses the apparent purposelessness of hauntings, and that is that for some reason, these souls are unable to communicate in a direct manner with we who are living. We might speculate even, that some aspect of their purgation involves time on earth, mostly in isolation. I am considering for instance, a person who, though in a state of grace, was so attached to his house that he must be rid of this attachment to be free of the inclination to sin. Maybe his primary purpose on earth is to rid himself of this attachment, and secondarily, by our awareness of him we should pray that he is able to do so. This explanation also offers a clue as to why some hauntings are more subtle than others. This may conform to the level of attachment to that particular building on the part of the deceased.
Though I covered it elsewhere, I feel that I should say again that if a 'haunting' is violent or involves emotional, spiritual, psychological, or even physical harm, then it is almost certainly a demon masquerading as a soul in purgatory.
I will note finally that I consider many so-called haunted houses to be explainable by natural reasons. Some recent research has shown that certain frequencies which are below our ability to detect can cause sympathetic vibrations in the body that simulate feelings of dread, the feeling of being watched, or even the sensation of seeing something out of the corner of your eye. It is possible that some pipes vibrate at this particular range of frequencies, as well as old electronics, etc..


[b]The Powers of Evil Spirits[/b]

I mentioned above that I wished to take a moment to discuss the potential power that the souls of the damned can have over us. This section is purely speculative, and I'd welcome any additional research that could be contributed. I'll open with Fr. Euteneuer's treatment of the topic.


[b]Exorcism and the Church Militant[/b]
Pages 105-106
"Whether damned souls can actually possess living persons is an open question still debated even by experienced exorcists, but the classical view is against the idea. Notwithstanding what was mentioned above about "separated souls", it is hard to see how a damned human soul would be released from hell to independently possess or haunt another human being. This is first of all based upon the biblical image of the "chasm between us and you" of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. A damned soul would not have the spiritual power over nature to return to torment humans as a demon would and, being separated from the body, would not likely be able to manifest itself in the world with any great power that would be needed for an actual possession. If a damned soul were somehow "attached" to a demon roaming the world, such a soul would be entirely controlled by the stronger demon and theoretically participate vicariously in the demon's haunting, harassing, frightening or possession of the living human person but not be able to do those same activities on its own. This however, is pure speculation and is not defined doctrinally. Biblically and theologically, it is most accurate to presume that damned human souls do not possess or torment other human beings."
I wish to speculate just a bit further in the same direction as Fr. Euteneuer.
I think first of all, an important recognition is that a damned human soul is still human, and therefore has the same nature and ability as any other human. However, no longer having a body, it will not have the same limitations or strengths as a living human.
Since these souls are not confined by a body, I think it is reasonable to suggest that they are able to co-exist within the body of a living person. I think that it is also reasonable that, once existing within a body, they would be able to cause spiritual disturbances and generally harass the victim.
More important however, is to examine why these things may be able to happen. As Fr. Euteneuer says, it is somewhat problematic to think that the damned souls may temporarily leave hell independently. To answer this, I propose that it may be possible for a soul to temporarily leave hell while being controlled by a demon, however over the course of harassment of the victim God has not allowed the demon any amount of latitude. We know very clearly that demons are able to do only what God has allowed. Thus, I think we may suggest that while the demon was not given permission to oppress or possess the victim, the damned soul accompanying the demon was given some amount of permission to test and otherwise oppress the living soul.


[b]Discernment of Spirits[/b]

But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5, 21)
Last of all, we will spend a moment on the discernment of spirits. For this, I will merely copy verbatim from the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola:


[b]RULES FOR THE SAME EFFECT WITH GREATER DISCERNMENT OF SPIRITS[/b]

First Rule. The first: It is proper to God and to His Angels in their movements to give true spiritual gladness and joy, taking away all sadness and disturbance which the enemy brings on. Of this latter it is proper to fight against the spiritual gladness and consolation, bringing apparent reasons, subtleties and continual fallacies.
Second Rule. The second: It belongs to God our Lord to give consolation to the soul without preceding cause, for it is the property of the Creator to enter, go out and cause movements in the soul, bringing it all into love of His Divine Majesty. I say without cause: without any previous sense or knowledge of any object through which such consolation would come, through one’s acts of understanding and will.
Third Rule. The third: With cause, as well the good Angel as the bad can console the soul, for contrary ends: the good Angel for the profit of the soul, that it may grow and rise from good to better, and the evil Angel, for the contrary, and later on to draw it to his damnable intention and wickedness.
Fourth Rule. The fourth: It is proper to the evil Angel, who forms himself under the appearance of an angel of light, to enter with the devout soul and go out with himself: that is to say, to bring good and holy thoughts, conformable to such just soul, and then little by little he aims at coming out drawing the soul to his covert deceits and perverse intentions.
Fifth Rule. The fifth: We ought to note well the course of the thoughts, and if the beginning, middle and end is all good, inclined to all good, it is a sign of the good Angel; but if in the course of the thoughts which he brings it ends in something bad, of a distracting tendency, or less good than what the soul had previously proposed to do, or if it weakens it or disquiets or disturbs the soul, taking away its peace, tranquillity and quiet, which it had before, it is a clear sign that it proceeds from the evil spirit, enemy of our profit and eternal salvation.
Sixth Rule. The sixth: When the enemy of human nature has been perceived and known by his serpent’s tail and the bad end to which he leads on, it helps the person who was tempted by him, to look immediately at the course of the good thoughts which he brought him at their beginning, and how little by little he aimed at making him descend from the spiritual sweetness and joy in which he was, so far as to bring him to his depraved intention; in order that with this experience, known and noted, the person may be able to guard for the future against his usual deceits.
Seventh Rule. The seventh: In those who go on from good to better, the good Angel touches such soul sweetly, lightly and gently, like a drop of water which enters into a sponge; and the evil touches it sharply and with noise and disquiet, as when the drop of water falls on the stone.
And the above-said spirits touch in a contrary way those who go on from bad to worse.
The reason of this is that the disposition of the soul is contrary or like to the said Angels. Because, when it is contrary, they enter perceptibly with clatter and noise; and when it is like, they enter with silence as into their own home, through the open door.
Eighth Rule. The eighth: When the consolation is without cause, although there be no deceit in it, as being of God our Lord alone, as was said; still the spiritual person to whom God gives such consolation, ought, with much vigilance and attention, to look at and distinguish the time itself of such actual consolation from the following, in which the soul remains warm and favored with the favor and remnants of the consolation past; for often in this second time, through one’s own course of habits and the consequences of the concepts and judgments, or through the good spirit or through the bad, he forms various resolutions and opinions which are not given immediately by God our Lord, and therefore they have need to be very well examined before entire credit is given them, or they are put into effect.
To summarize: those spirits which serve Satan sow only discord and weaken our faith. They can do nothing else. The spirits who are conformed with God's Will bring consolation and strength.
While this properly applies to demons and angels, we can also use these principles when dealing with human souls. We know that evil souls can bring nothing but harm, as they are no longer capable of righteousness. Conversely, we know that souls who have joined the Church Triumphant can never harm us. Souls in purgatory are slightly different. They are also incapable of sin, however they are not perfected. I think it is reasonable to think that they could frighten us (unintentionally), though they could not cause us actual harm.


[b]Closing Remarks[/b]:


I wish to conclude reaffirming that the only paranormal activity that could possibly occur is that which is allowed by God, and this activity will be permitted only for an express purpose. In the case of spiritual harassment, it is meant to test us like Job was tested, in order to deepen our faith. For souls in purgatory, we are to pray for their purification, which of course has secondary benefits for our own virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Finally, for souls who are already enjoying the Beatific Vision, their purpose would be to guide, console, and help us.
We have nothing to fear from the paranormal. In cases of evil attacks we always have recourse to the authority of the Church in formal exorcisms and liturgical healing, and also through the authority we all share as Christians, in the universal priesthood of baptism.[/color]

Edited May 22, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Lil Red]

Fr. Brian had a few things collected over the years, but i don't remember the website he pointed me to.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306093995' post='2244518']
Fr. Brian had a few things collected over the years, but i don't remember the website he pointed me to.
[/quote]
I asked his advice on haunted houses and he mentioned a great looking book to me, as well as sharing a bit of his thoughts on the subject.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306094087' post='2244519']
I asked his advice on haunted houses and he mentioned a great looking book to me, as well as sharing a bit of his thoughts on the subject.
[/quote]
something he said a long time ago (about the paranormal TV shows and the haunted house tours) that really stuck with me was that if those are souls that are 'from purgatory' trying to ask for our prayers - we certainly should not be making fun of them or having sport with them. We should pray and have Masses said for the repose of their souls.

and if it's demons, then we should pray even harder!! lol

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1306096709' post='2244532']
something he said a long time ago (about the paranormal TV shows and the haunted house tours) that really stuck with me was that if those are souls that are 'from purgatory' trying to ask for our prayers - we certainly should not be making fun of them or having sport with them. We should pray and have Masses said for the repose of their souls.

and if it's demons, then we should pray even harder!! lol
[/quote]
Definitely, and I think the Purgatory hypothesis is a very reasonable one to make. From my understanding of the subject, haunted houses are the trickiest to reconcile with a Catholic worldview, and at first I found even the purgatory idea to be weaker than I'd have liked. However, after further thinking on the subject I think it's perfectly adequate.

I'm also thinking now of haunted house stories (the so-called true ones) where the hauntings become more and more intense, up to the point that the entity is manifesting itself as clearly evil. In those cases I have to imagine that we're looking at a demon who at first was posing as a spirit in purgation, and then for whatever reason was given the opportunity to exercise more of its power.

[Mr.Cat]

The ghost in spelunky used to scare me.

[Vincent Vega]

I find this topic interesting. Good post!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1306102802' post='2244578']
I find this topic interesting. Good post!
[/quote]
iawtc

[goldenchild17]

What does the Church teach (authoritatively or speculatively) about the parameters of the location of heaven, hell and purgatory? Or about the limitations of their locations in parallel to heaven? Do we know without a doubt that none of the possible ghosts one might hypothetically encounter is actually a soul in heaven, hell or purgatory? I'm thinking particularly of cases in which the sound/message/whatever you want to call it of a ghost that has been captured seems particularly distraught or downright pleading. Is it against Catholic thinking to believe that such a case might be one in which a human has been granted a particular insight into the experience of a particular soul in hell/purgatory? Of course it would be more likely that if this were to happen it would be on a much more obvious scale, like for example when Our Lady of Fatima opened up hell so that the children could see it for themselves, but is there a possibility that this principle could be extended in a more limited way to certain people?

This is purely a question on my part, I have nothing to back it up either way. Just wondering what the implications are regarding the limitations of the locations of the afterlife.

[goldenchild17]

On a side note: and this is probably an entirely different thread, but I didn't feel like starting one (going to ease myself back into the forum ). It's somewhat connected to the question of the location of heaven, hell and purgatory. If Mary was assumed bodily into heaven then where did her body go? Can the idea of heaven, hell and purgatory be connected to the idea of other dimensions?

Edited May 23, 2011 by goldenchild17

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' timestamp='1306178732' post='2244989']
What does the Church teach (authoritatively or speculatively) about the parameters of the location of heaven, hell and purgatory? Or about the limitations of their locations in parallel to heaven? Do we know without a doubt that none of the possible ghosts one might hypothetically encounter is actually a soul in heaven, hell or purgatory? I'm thinking particularly of cases in which the sound/message/whatever you want to call it of a ghost that has been captured seems particularly distraught or downright pleading. Is it against Catholic thinking to believe that such a case might be one in which a human has been granted a particular insight into the experience of a particular soul in hell/purgatory? Of course it would be more likely that if this were to happen it would be on a much more obvious scale, like for example when Our Lady of Fatima opened up hell so that the children could see it for themselves, but is there a possibility that this principle could be extended in a more limited way to certain people?

This is purely a question on my part, I have nothing to back it up either way. Just wondering what the implications are regarding the limitations of the locations of the afterlife.
[/quote]
The specific technical natures of heaven and hell is not something I'm really qualified to discuss, but as to the rest of it...
First, I think it's quite reasonable that we can encounter these souls.
Second, if I understand properly, you're talking about whether or not our encounter with these souls is within the context of us still on earth, and that soul still in purgatory or hell or heaven, i.e. they haven't temporarily left. That's a pretty thought provoking question. I recall that St. Thomas was granted a vision of heaven, and I'm sure there were saints granted visions of purgatory or hell as well, as you mentioned. I think it somewhat unlikely that a damned soul could interact directly with the living without temporarily leaving hell. To support that I'll point towards Luke 16: [26] And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. (Keeping in mind, of course, the Summa Theologica Supplementum Q 69 Article 3, docu-dumped below.)


Article 3. Whether the souls who are in heaven or hell are able to go from thence?

[spoiler]


Objection 1. It would seem that the souls in heaven or hell are unable to go from thence. For Augustine says (De Cura pro Mort. xiii): "If the souls of the dead took any part in the affairs of the living, to say nothing of others, there is myself whom not for a single night would my loving mother fail to visit since she followed me by land and sea in order to abide with me": and from this he concludes that the souls of the departed do not mingle in the affairs of the living. But they would be able to do so if they were to leave their abode. Therefore they do not go forth from their abode.

Objection 2. Further, it is written (Psalm 26:4): "That I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life," and (Job 7:9): "He that shall go down to hell shall not come up." Therefore neither the good nor the wicked quit their abode.

Objection 3. Further, as stated above (Article 2), abodes are awarded to souls after death as a reward or punishment. Now after death neither the rewards of the saints nor the punishments of the damned are increased. Therefore they do not quit their abodes.

On the contrary, Jerome writing against Vigilantius addresses him thus: "For thou sayest that the souls of the apostles and martyrs have taken up their abode either in Abraham's bosom or in the place of refreshment, or under the altar of God, and that they are unable to visit their graves when they will. Wouldst thou then lay down the law for God? Wouldst thou put the apostles in chains, imprison them until the day of judgment, and forbid them to be with their lord, them of whom it is written: They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth? And if the Lamb is everywhere, therefore we must believe that those also who are with Him are everywhere." Therefore it is absurd to say that the souls of the departed do not leave their abode.

Further, Jerome argues as follows: "Since the devil and the demons wander throughout the whole world, and are everywhere present with wondrous speed, why should the martyrs, after shedding their blood be imprisoned and unable to go forth?" Hence we may infer that not only the good sometimes leave their abode, but also the wicked, since their damnation does not exceed that of the demons who wander about everywhere.

Further, the same conclusion may be gathered from Gregory (Dial. iv), where he relates many cases of the dead having appeared to the living.

I answer that, There are two ways of understanding a person to leave hell or heaven. First, that he goes from thence simply, so that heaven or hell be no longer his place: and in this way no one who is finally consigned to hell or heaven can go from thence, as we shall state further on (71, 5, ad 5). Secondly, they may be understood to go forth for a time: and here we must distinguish what befits them according to the order of nature, and what according to the order of Divine providence; for as Augustine says (De Cura pro Mort. xvi): "Human affairs have their limits other than have the wonders of the Divine power, nature's works differ from those which are done miraculously." Consequently, according to the natural course, the separated souls consigned to their respective abodes are utterly cut off from communication with the living. For according to the course of nature men living in mortal bodies are not immediately united to separate substances, since their entire knowledge arises from the senses: nor would it be fitting for them to leave their abode for any purpose other than to take part in the affairs of the living. Nevertheless, according to the disposition of Divine providence separated souls sometimes come forth from their abode and appear to men, as Augustine, in the book quoted above, relates of the martyr Felix who appeared visibly to the people of Nola when they were besieged by the barbarians. It is also credible that this may occur sometimes to the damned, and that for man's instruction and intimidation they be permitted to appear to the living; or again in order to seek our suffrages, as to those who are detained in purgatory, as evidenced by many instances related in the fourth book of the Dialogues. There is, however, this difference between the saints and the damned, that the saints can appear when they will to the living, but not the damned; for even as the saints while living in the flesh are able by the gifts of gratuitous grace to heal and work wonders, which can only be done miraculously by the Divine power, and cannot be done by those who lack this gift, so it is not unfitting for the souls of the saints to be endowed with a power in virtue of their glory, so that they are able to appear wondrously to the living, when they will: while others are unable to do so unless they be sometimes permitted.

Reply to Objection 1. Augustine, as may be gathered from what he says afterwards, is speaking according to the common course of nature, And yet it does not follow, although the dead be able to appear to the living as they will, that they appear as often as when living in the flesh: because when they are separated from the flesh, they are either wholly conformed to the divine will, so that they may do nothing but what they see to be agreeable with the Divine disposition, or else they are so overwhelmed by their punishments that their grief for their unhappiness surpasses their desire to appear to others.

Reply to Objection 2. The authorities quoted speak in the sense that no one comes forth from heaven or hell simply, and do not imply that one may not come forth for a time.

Reply to Objection 3. As stated above (1, ad 3) the soul's place conduces to its punishment or reward in so far as the soul, through being consigned to that place, is affected either by joy or by grief. Now this joy or grief at being consigned to such a place remains in the soul even when it is outside that place. Thus a bishop who is given the honor of sitting on a throne in the church incurs no dishonor when he leaves the throne, for though he sits not therein actually, the place remains assigned to him.

We must also reply to the arguments in the contrary sense.

Reply to Objection 4. Jerome is speaking of the apostles and martyrs in reference to that which they gain from their power of glory, and not to that which befits them as due to them by nature. And when he says that they are everywhere, he does not mean that they are in several places or everywhere at once, but that they can be wherever they will.

Reply to Objection 5. There is no parity between demons and angels on the one hand and the souls of the saints and of the damned on the other. For the good or bad angels have allotted to them the office of presiding over men, to watch over them or to try them; but this cannot be said of the souls of men. Nevertheless, according to the power of glory, it is competent to the souls of the saints that they can be where they will; and this is what Jerome means to say.

Reply to Objection 6. Although the souls of the saints or of the damned are sometimes actually present where they appear, we are not to believe that this is always so: for sometimes these apparitions occur to persons whether asleep or awake by the activity of good or wicked angels in order to instruct or deceive the living. Thus sometimes even the living appear to others and tell them many things in their sleep; and yet it is clear that they are not present, as Augustine proves from many instances (De Cura pro Mort. xi, xii).
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As to souls currently in heaven or purgatory... I dunno, I'm leaning towards the negative. Maybe simply because I'd want to apply the same idea of hell as to purgatory and heaven, but that might be too hasty of me.
We know that some of the saints were able to bi-locate. We can speculate as to what exactly happens with regards to their body and soul at that moment, and it's a pretty tricky question as far as I know, so maybe it's plausible after all. Maybe a soul can bi-locate between heaven or purgatory and earth, with God's permission.
Definitely a very interesting thing to think about. Thanks for bringing that up!

[Era Might]

I've seen a ghost. His name was Kip.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1306179794' post='2244993']
The specific technical natures of heaven and hell is not something I'm really qualified to discuss, but as to the rest of it...
First, I think it's quite reasonable that we can encounter these souls.
Second, if I understand properly, you're talking about whether or not our encounter with these souls is within the context of us still on earth, and that soul still in purgatory or hell or heaven, i.e. they haven't temporarily left. That's a pretty thought provoking question. I recall that St. Thomas was granted a vision of heaven, and I'm sure there were saints granted visions of purgatory or hell as well, as you mentioned. [/quote]


Yes this is what I was considering.

[quote]I think it somewhat unlikely that a damned soul could interact directly with the living without temporarily leaving hell. To support that I'll point towards Luke 16: [26] And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. (Keeping in mind, of course, the Summa Theologica Supplementum Q 69 Article 3, docu-dumped below.)[/quote]

Oh I agree that one could not directly interact with the living while they are in hell. I was not referring to a soul in hell directly/purposely interacting with a human, but a human somehow (whether it be a gift from God/extra-sensory perception or whatever) tuning in to the suffering of a soul in hell i.e. their screams of torment/lamentations. The soul is not consciously communicating with the human, but the human is somehow hearing some of the soul's experience. I bring this up because I was thinking about the difference between what are called intelligent ghosts and then what are considered to be more residual. The intelligent ones (hypothetically) can and do interact directly with humans. But then there are cases where ghosts seemingly do their own thing and make their own sounds without our prompting. I just wonder if a Catholic response to the latter is that the soul is not interacting with us, but instead we are given an auditory experience of their pain/suffering in hell or purgatory.

[quote]As to souls currently in heaven or purgatory... I dunno, I'm leaning towards the negative. Maybe simply because I'd want to apply the same idea of hell as to purgatory and heaven, but that might be too hasty of me.[/quote]

I'm probably overlooking the obvious, but I'm not sure what the complication is that makes this inconsistent between the three locations. I'm not as familiar with particular reports of humans being granted visions/experiences of heaven or purgatory, but I do know of cases where humans have been allowed to see hell and what happens there. This is what brought about the purely speculative question about whether or not some of the sounds of paranormal activity could be at some level a similar allowance of a human being able to experience these eternal states of being. I think it would be less likely for a human to know that they are experiencing a soul's life in heaven because I'm not sure what that would sound like. But some of the reported sounds of pain/anguish that have been reportedly been captured might hypothetically coincide with the sounds a soul might make in either hell or purgatory.


[quote]We know that some of the saints were able to bi-locate. We can speculate as to what exactly happens with regards to their body and soul at that moment, and it's a pretty tricky question as far as I know, so maybe it's plausible after all. Maybe a soul can bi-locate between heaven or purgatory and earth, with God's permission.
Definitely a very interesting thing to think about. Thanks for bringing that up!
[/quote]

hmm, yeah I don't know. I was just bringing up another potential possibility. I'm not dismissing the idea of direct contact. I believe God allows this in certain situations. But I wonder if, in addition to these, we might be granted, even if briefly, the experience of a soul in their place of eternal rest/torment.


Sorry if this isn't making any sense. It's a concept I'm still working through so I'm not entirely sure how to word it...

Edited May 23, 2011 by goldenchild17

[Cherie]

We had the book "Ghosts and Poltergeists" in our convent library!

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='goldenchild17' timestamp='1306181307' post='2245004']
Yes this is what I was considering.



Oh I agree that one could not directly interact with the living while they are in hell. I was not referring to a soul in hell directly/purposely interacting with a human, but a human somehow (whether it be a gift from God/extra-sensory perception or whatever) tuning in to the suffering of a soul in hell i.e. their screams of torment/lamentations. The soul is not consciously communicating with the human, but the human is somehow hearing some of the soul's experience. I bring this up because I was thinking about the difference between what are called intelligent ghosts and then what are considered to be more residual. The intelligent ones (hypothetically) can and do interact directly with humans. But then there are cases where ghosts seemingly do their own thing and make their own sounds without our prompting. I just wonder if a Catholic response to the latter is that the soul is not interacting with us, but instead we are given an auditory experience of their pain/suffering in hell or purgatory.



I'm probably overlooking the obvious, but I'm not sure what the complication is that makes this inconsistent between the three locations. I'm not as familiar with particular reports of humans being granted visions/experiences of heaven or purgatory, but I do know of cases where humans have been allowed to see hell and what happens there. This is what brought about the purely speculative question about whether or not some of the sounds of paranormal activity could be at some level a similar allowance of a human being able to experience these eternal states of being. I think it would be less likely for a human to know that they are experiencing a soul's life in heaven because I'm not sure what that would sound like. But some of the reported sounds of pain/anguish that have been reportedly been captured might hypothetically coincide with the sounds a soul might make in either hell or purgatory.




hmm, yeah I don't know. I was just bringing up another potential possibility. I'm not dismissing the idea of direct contact. I believe God allows this in certain situations. But I wonder if, in addition to these, we might be granted, even if briefly, the experience of a soul in their place of eternal rest/torment.


Sorry if this isn't making any sense. It's a concept I'm still working through so I'm not entirely sure how to word it...
[/quote]

Ah, I understand better what you mean! Yeah, I think it's something we can definitely speculate on. One of my ideas for the 'residual' nature of a haunted house is that maybe it is part of a soul's purgatory to rid himself of undue attachment to a place or thing in his life. It's a little more complicated maybe, but still within the realm of safe possibilities that maybe a certain place is connected to that soul in such a way that you can witness, in a certain sense, his purgation. Almost like the house (or object) is a sort of window into that particular person's purgatory.

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1306181974' post='2245009']
We had the book "Ghosts and Poltergeists" in our convent library!
[/quote]
I was lucky, I found something like a 1953 (or something like that) printing of it for under $10!