Praise For Bishops

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote] If the matter is not just wheat flour and water than the Mass is invalid. There is no sacrament.[/quote]

Hmmm...I've been taught that it's still valid, but illicit.

Whatever the Church says.

I'll have to find out, now.

We have valid and licit matter here, but if my theology teachers lied to me...oh...they'll hear about it!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I found the following on EWTN:

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=398448&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=valid+matter&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]Number One[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=288913&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=valid+matter&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]Number Two[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=295566&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=valid+matter&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]Number Three[/url]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=312080&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=3000&Author=&Keyword=valid+matter&pgnu=1&groupnum=0"]Number Four[/url]

It seems to me from these that Communion in the Eastern Catholic Rites, which is valid, is not licit in the Latin Rite because it is leavened.

Therefore, it seems that leavened bread can be used validly, but not licitly within the Latin Rite.

I tend to trust EWTN, but being a Church Scholar, if you know of any higher, more orthodox authority on the matter, then please tell me. I would hate to be in error.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='willguy' date='Apr 24 2004, 03:06 PM']
Dude, even the Protestants use unleavened bread (or at least white bread).  That's just plain wrong.[/quote]
You're right, what Raphael reported is very wrong.

But some Protestants use plain ole leavened white bread that comes in a sliced loaf from the local market, and the unused portion goes home after church services to be used for sandwiches, or it may be thrown in the garbage. At my former Southern Baptist Church, saltine crackers (and Welch's grape juice) were used.

We had a phatmass thread long ago where various Protestants and ex-Protestants reported the "elements" used in their (former) churches. I remember one post reported that at a wedding, the bride and groom requested that "communion" be hot chocolate, and the request was granted. There's no explaining what some Protestants do! The Holy Spirit leads each individual to all truth, dontchaknow. Every person is his own Pope, infallibly interpreting the Scriptures for himself.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[BLAZEr]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 24 2004, 03:45 PM']
Hmmm...I've been taught that it's still valid, but illicit.

Whatever the Church says.

I'll have to find out, now.

We have valid and licit matter here, but if my theology teachers lied to me...oh...they'll hear about it! [/quote]
Raph, I found this from the Monks of Adoration. You are right that some materials added to the bread do not necessarily invalidate the sacrament, however, some materials do. I think that Fr. Halligan has the most appropriate answer I've ever seen.

[quote]In the Latin Rite of the Church the bread is to be made with wheat and water only. Nothing may be added to the recipe, and the introduction of materials such as baking powder, salt, and honey render the bread that is used illicit. In the Eastern Rites, leaven may be added to the bread.

Here is what Inestimabile Donum, the Church's most recent major statement on liturgical abuses, states:

"The bread for the celebration of the Eucharist, in accordance with the tradition of the whole Church, must be made solely of wheat, and, in accordance with the tradition proper to the Latin Church, it must be unleavened. By reason of the sign, the matter of the Eucharistic celebration 'should appear as actual food.' This is to be understood as linked to the consistency is mof the bread, and not to its form, which remains the traditional one. No other ingredients are to be added to the wheaten flour and water. The preparation of the bread requires attentive care to ensure that the product does not detract from the dignity due to the Eucharistic bread, can be broken in a dignified way, does not give rise to excessive fragments, and does not offend the sensibilities of the faithful when they eat it" (Inestimabile Donum 8).

And the Code of Canon Law states:

"The bread must be made of wheat alone and recently made so that there is no danger of corruption" (CIC 924:2).

This means that any admixture of any other substance renders the use of the bread for consecration automatically illicit (unlawful). Concerning the issue of what happens to the validity of the consecration (i.e., whether Transubstantiation occurs), here is what Fr. Nicholas Halligan, one of the foremost sacramental theologians in the country, has to say in his manual of sacramental theology:

"The requisite material for the celebration of the Eucharist and the confection of the sacrament is only weaten bread, recently made whereby the danger of corruption is avoided... Unleavened bread alone is to be used in the Latin Rite.

"The bread must be made from wheat, mixed with natural water, baked by the application of fire heat (including electric cooking) and substantially uncorrupted. The variety of the wheat or the region of its origin does not affect its validity, but bread made from any other grain is invalid material. [b]Bread made with milk, wine, oil, etc., either entirely or in a notable part, is invalid material. [/b]The addition of a condiment, such as salt or sugar, is unlwaful but valid, [i]unless added in a notable quantity.[/i] [u]Unbaked dough or dough fried in butter or cooked in water is invalid matter[/u]; likewise bread which is corrupted substantially, but not if it has merely begun to corrupt....

"The bread must be of wheat flour and only in case of necessity a white material thrashed or crushed from wheat. It must be free from mixture with any other substance besides flour and water. It is gravely unlawful to consecrate with doubtful matter. Altar breads must be fresh or recently baked and must not be allowed to get mouldy, which condition varies with regions, climates, etc." (Nicholas Halligan, The Sacraments and Their Celebration, [New York: Alba House, 1986], 65-66).
[/quote]

Definitely adding bananas, and it would seem eggs, would make the matter invalid. However, baking soda, or salt or sugar would only make it illicit (as would leaven in the Latin rite). I think the principle hear is whether what is added substantially changes the matter which should be wheat and water. Salt and sugar are not substantive changes. Eggs, oil, bananas, etc would seem to be.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

BLAZEr, I'm glad that you replied.

What you said was my intent and I wholeheartedly agree.

Thank you.

[Katholikos]

Raphael, the place you speak of in Phoenix may have been the Franciscan Renewal Center, otherwise known as the Casa de Paz y Bien, or Casa for short, which for many years was known as a refuge for dissenters. Individual members of "the Casa" have baked the Eucharistic bread used at Mass for years. It could have seemed like "banana bread" in texture and taste.

I understand that "The Casa" is trying to become "Catholic" once more -- and I doubt that our new bishop will tolerate their dissidence as the former bishop did. This has been a source of real sadness for me, since I'm a Third Order Franciscan.

The Casa was not alone, however. Dissent and innovative liturgies in this diocese multiplied under the previous laissez faire administration.

JMJ Likos

[Thy Geekdom Come]

It wasn't the Franciscan Renewal Center...it had an ordinary parish name...

I don't remember what it was...

It was actually in Mesa, if that helps.

[Katholikos]

Raphael, thanks .