Difference Between Carmelite And Poor Clare Convents

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1306077816' post='2244471']
When I stayed for a week with my sisters (active), they also had a siesta inserted into the day and what you say is very true- it made the day feel like [i]two[/i] days. Quite refreshing, I found!

Curious- do [i]all[/i] Carmels have a siesta? Or just the ones that originated from Spain? (I think I remember reading one of you all saying most Carmels were either originated in Spain or France?)
[/quote]


All discalced Carmels ultimately originate from Spain (Avila). Most UK ones were founded from Notting Hill, which was founded from Paris, which was founded from Avila! All the ones I know have some sort of solitary break during the day, but not all insist you rest in your cell during that time.

[AccountDeleted]

Ha! Posted same time as faithcecilia - just remembered though that the Carmel I was in here in Australia was founded by French nuns. The Belgium nuns did send a Prioress to the Macau convent which later moved to Canada. But St Joseph's in Avila was the 'motherhouse' of all discalced Carmelites if you could use such a term for Carmelites.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306078261' post='2244475']
Ha! Posted same time as faithcecilia - just remembered though that the Carmel I was in here in Australia was founded by French nuns. The Belgium nuns did send a Prioress to the Macau convent which later moved to Canada. But St Joseph's in Avila was the 'motherhouse' of all discalced Carmelites if you could use such a term for Carmelites.
[/quote]


Yes, and you can make it even more complicated if you want to by pointing out the the UK Carmels founded from Belgium were actually English Carmels all along and had to be in Belgium due to Catholicism being banned!

[ACS67]

I think one has to remember why many of the Poor Clares "get up in the middle of night" (the Colletines but also the Poor Clares in St. Louis who are OSC and probably others that I am unfamiliar with) They are "keeping vigil" with the Lord and also praying for the world. While many in the world are out sinning in the middle of the night, there are a group of women praying for their souls. While many are sick and/or dying in the middle of night, there are a group of women praying for their souls, etc. To have ones sleep interupted is difficult from a purely physiologic human standpoint and were it not for God's abundant grace bestowed on these women they too would not be able to endure it. They don't rely on their own strength to carry out such a vocation. They rely on God's grace. The Poor Clare vocation is lived out not merely to save her own soul, but primarily in giving her life, hidden and enclosed, for the sake of others.

In the East too much sleep was/is linked with sloth. St. John Climacus said:
" Long sleep produces forgetfulness, but keeping vigil clears the memory...Excessive sleep is a bad companion, stealing half a lifetime or more from the lazy man...Alertness keeps the mind clean. Somnolence binds the soul...the vigilant monk is a fisher of thoughts, and in the quiet of the night he can easily obeserve and catch them."

These are just my observations...

[Yaatee]

I think that most of the posters on this thread know that PCs rise at midnight and why they do it. I don't think that any sister, apostolic or cloistered, habited or not, is in danger of getting too much sleep.

This thread started as a discussion of the differences between PCs and OCDs. There is a lot of external penance in both groups, possibly more among the PCs, although this can be debated, but both are highly penitential. The main difference appears between the common work and worship for the PCs and the greater hermit-like emphasis for the OCDs. There appears to be plenty of joy in both groups, although this certainly varies from monastery to monastery.

[ACS67]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306092709' post='2244512']
I think that most of the posters on this thread know that PCs rise at midnight and why they do it. I don't think that any sister, apostolic or cloistered, habited or not, is in danger of getting too much sleep.

This thread started as a discussion of the differences between PCs and OCDs. There is a lot of external penance in both groups, possibly more among the PCs, although this can be debated, but both are highly penitential. The main difference appears between the common work and worship for the PCs and the greater hermit-like emphasis for the OCDs. There appears to be plenty of joy in both groups, although this certainly varies from monastery to monastery.
[/quote]

My post was just a gentle reminder, as the thread (along with another thread about the OCD's where the Poor Clares came up again), seemed to be deviating off into trivial personal preferences with "I wouldn't like to do this,(waking up in the middle of the night) I wouldn't want to do that (cutting ones hair...mentioned in the other thread), etc. But that is just my opinion, however. No offence meant to anyone.

Edited May 22, 2011 by ACS67

[Yaatee]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1306094816' post='2244522']
My post was just a gentle reminder, as the thread (along with another thread about the OCD's where the Poor Clares came up again), seemed to be deviating off into trivial personal preferences with "I wouldn't like to do this,(waking up in the middle of the night) I wouldn't want to do that (cutting ones hair...mentioned in the other thread), etc. But that is just my opinion, however. No offense meant to anyone.
[/quote]

...and none taken.

...but I think that one should consider one's natural personal abilities and preferences in discernment. This is just [i]my [/i]opinion. When I was very young, I was obsessed with striving for the[i] best,[/i] whatever that was, and the OCD, St. Therese's order, was the best, of course. Sleep deprivation, cloister, and all. I read "My Beloved" by an OCD, and "A Right to Be Merry" by the famous Sr. M. Francis, PC, an abbess for over 40 years. Both books describe quite a lot of penance. "My Beloved" describes her constant fatigue, for example. Understandable, but not universal. But it would be for me.

[Yaatee]

...here's a clip from a solemn profession of a Poor Clare. She looks [i]very[/i] young.

this is from St. Louis.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2GPkvezaUM"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_2GPkvezaUM[/url]

[ACS67]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306116276' post='2244667']
...here's a clip from a solemn profession of a Poor Clare. She looks [i]very[/i] young.

this is from St. Louis.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2GPkvezaUM"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_2GPkvezaUM[/url]
[/quote]

Yes. Sr. Mary Christiansa. She is 25. She entered at 19. I didn't meet her when I was there earlier this month but I did meet Mother Mary Leo (the other voice in the video) and 3 other sisters. They are a fantastic community.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306116276' post='2244667']
...here's a clip from a solemn profession of a Poor Clare. She looks [i]very[/i] young.

this is from St. Louis.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2GPkvezaUM"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_2GPkvezaUM[/url]
[/quote]


I get all teary when I see a solemn profession, I long for the day I commit myself 'until death'

[Chiquitunga]

Something huge that hasn't been mentioned yet; Poor Clares have a whole lot more adoration of the Blessed Sacrament than Discalced Carmelites. Most PC monasteries have adoration several hours throughout the day, many perpetual. Adoring the exposed Eucharist is a big part of Franciscan spirituality.

[img]http://174.120.138.8/%7Eminooka/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/poor_clare_nun_prayer.jpg[/img]

In Carmel it's much less. I think the average would be once or twice a month, depending on the Carmel of course. I know one that doesn't have even that, but only for occasions like Corpus Christi, etc. Then there are others that have a Holy Hour where the public can come weekly .. others throughout the day First Fridays, or Saturdays, etc. And often Our Lord is on the altar on the other side of the grille (again depending on the community) so He can't be seen very well. I know St. Louis has it every day, but that's a major exception, which they do point out on their site (that they may be the only Carmel in the world privileged to have that much exposition) As one Prioress told me, adoration is not a part of the charism of the Carmel .. and another that Carmelite nuns are not "adorers" (in the strict sense, as in adoring the exposed Blessed Sacrament) but they seek/adore the hidden Christ within, the Indwelling Trinity.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wr40QTymJRc/TPQZQ8h6iiI/AAAAAAAABjM/5CL1KrEVCVk/s1600/carm+Holy+Trinity.jpg[/img]

[kavalamyself]

Just think of it like this: the Caremlites are bascially hermits living in community, and Poor Clares live, work and pray in community. Not so much on the hermit part.

[ACS67]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1306168814' post='2244901']
Something huge that hasn't been mentioned yet; Poor Clares have a whole lot more adoration of the Blessed Sacrament than Discalced Carmelites. Most PC monasteries have adoration several hours throughout the day, many perpetual. Adoring the exposed Eucharist is a big part of Franciscan spirituality.

[img]http://174.120.138.8/%7Eminooka/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/poor_clare_nun_prayer.jpg[/img]

In Carmel it's much less. I think the average would be once or twice a month, depending on the Carmel of course. I know one that doesn't have even that, but only for occasions like Corpus Christi, etc. Then there are others that have a Holy Hour where the public can come weekly .. others throughout the day First Fridays, or Saturdays, etc. And often Our Lord is on the altar on the other side of the grille (again depending on the community) so He can't be seen very well. I know St. Louis has it every day, but that's a major exception, which they do point out on their site (that they may be the only Carmel in the world privileged to have that much exposition) As one Prioress told me, adoration is not a part of the charism of the Carmel .. and another that Carmelite nuns are not "adorers" (in the strict sense, as in adoring the exposed Blessed Sacrament) but they seek/adore the hidden Christ within, the Indwelling Trinity.

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wr40QTymJRc/TPQZQ8h6iiI/AAAAAAAABjM/5CL1KrEVCVk/s1600/carm+Holy+Trinity.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

This is a very important distinction for sure and one that drew me (and continues to draw me) to the Poor Clares because it was during times of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament that I felt (and continue to feel) the call to religious life the strongest.

[emmaberry]

Help! I am in the battle between the Carmelites and Poor Clares. It is not a fun place to be, because they are both so good and I would love to spend myself in Carmel and in a Poor Clare monastery. Here is my main problem that keeps me up at night: I like EVERYTHING about the PCs, except the whole community thing. Don't get me wrong, I understand your sisters become your literal 'sisters,' but I feel Carmel's community of hermits suits who I am much better. Returning to the PCs, I love adoration. My vocation was. essentially, a Eucharistic miracle that happened when I was in the adoration chapel.

These seem to be two of the most important things to me in seeking out a religious community (adoration and a lot of solitude). Does anyone have any practical advice for which one I should lean towards?

I will soon visit the Roswell PCCs, but they don't allow aspirants/live-ins inside the cloister--meaning you must enter the postulancy somewhat blind to the community you are entering! I really like Carmel, but I can't make myself visit because of the infrequency of adoration.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

Edited June 4, 2012 by emmaberry

[Chiara Francesco]

Depending on the PCC community, many have the nuns having time in their cells - like most Carmels - also. They also have the 2 hrs of mental prayer and usually perpetual adoration or at least during the day (if they have low numbers in community). They pray all 7 Divine Office Hours but unlike Carmel, they only have ONE recreation hour a day.

The good 1990 Carmels don't do live-ins so if you want a closer Carmelite life to that of St. Teresa you go to a 1990 Carmel and they don't do live-ins. As have been written on the forum before, there are very good 1991s who might not give live-ins but I don't know about them.

The PCCs of Minooka, IL - founded from the Rockford, IL PCCs - is a great community and they give 2 week live-ins.

Some links -

Website is: http://www.poorclaresjoliet.org/

Article: http://www.bradenton.com/2009/03/07/1274264/poor-clare-nuns-embrace-an-arduous.html

Some photos: http://www.chicagotribune.com/search/dispatcher.front?target=multimedia&Query=nuns+minooka

Article in local paper: http://channahon-minooka.patch.com/articles/monasterys-job-is-prayer - photo is of their extern sister

and another: http://channahon-minooka.patch.com/articles/the-poor-clare-convent-in-minooka-adds-an-infirmary-wing-to-care-for-aging-sisters#photo-7830266


Besides adoration, are you drawn to what the PCCs have/do for penance and to be closer to God: barefeet inside the monastery year round - I visited these Minooka PCCs in the winter and the monastery was pretty chilly day time and cold at night and the floors were FREEZING! But I loved it and went barefoot!

Also are you attracted to going to bed twice each night and only getting 3-4 hrs sleep each time - or less? They go to bed between 8:30 pm and 9:00 pm, rise at 12 midnight or a bit later for the Matins Divine Office, return to bed around 1 am or later and get up again at 5:30 am.

SOME PCs do this midnight rising for Matins and none do the barefeet in the PCs that I've ever seen. It is mostly a PCC way of life - the reformer St. Colette re-instated for the PCs in the 1400s (another St. Teresa of Avila).

Also the perpetual fast and abstinence - NOT at certain times of the year as some orders do - like Carmel's Black Fast. Some PCCs do the discipline and Chapter of Faults or Begging Pardon and other traditional monastic practices.

If you aren't attracted to ALL of these practices, perhaps you might be better in Carmel but it still doesn't mean you wouldn't be a Carmelite. If you are one that is not keen or would rather not do some of these practices than that is an indication to were you shouldn't go too! Of course all orders will have some things a person isn't keen on but if you have strong feelings about something or strong feelings on a LOT of things that is a sign too I would think.

Also, read a lot of each of the orders saints, bios, etc. Read the Rule of St. Clare and her Testament and St. Colette's Testament (which I LOVE!). Read on the lives of saints and religious who were PCCs. Read writings by St. Francis, St. Clare, etc. Get to know the charism, spirituality, etc - IF you haven't already. Do the same for Carmel.

Does one speak more to your heart than another? I was told once this is a good indication if you were meant for an order. If you don't care for the foundress/founder's writings, way of life, rule, constitutions, you probably wouldn't be a good fit for that community.

Besides all this PRAY, PRAY and PRAY some more! Write and contact various communities of each.

The PCs of Galway, Ireland have a nice discernment section on their website:

Discernment in Brief: http://www.poorclares.ie/discernment.html

Vocation Discernment: http://www.poorclares.ie/vocation.html

I like this part of their Vocation Discernment advice: [i] "God reveals His plan by allowing us to discover the deepest desire of our hearts. We have so many desires on so many different levels but getting in touch with our deepest desire reveals our vocation to us."[/i] Search your heart deep and well.


Here's a prayer to learn his vocation/will of God in his life by St. Francis of Assisi. You could use his prayer and modify a bit to fit your situation:

[center][i][font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=3]"Most high, glorious God,
enlighten the darkness
of my heart and give me Lord,
a correct faith, a certain hope,
a perfect charity, sense and knowledge,
so that I may carry out
Your holy and true command. [/size][/font][/i][/center]
[center][i][font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][size=3]AMEN" [/size][/font][/i][/center]

Edited June 4, 2012 by Chiara Francesco