Difference Between Carmelite And Poor Clare Convents

[GraceUk]

There are so many interesting and moving posts here. I've never visited either a Carmelite or Poor Clare convent but have read a few books such as A Right to Be Merry and My Beloved. I know both orders are enclosed and of course have different spirituality and saints. But do they have much in common. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Poor Clares seem to have more fun even though their lives are hard and the Carmelites come over as much more serious. Would anybody ever discern both orders?

Edited May 21, 2011 by GraceUk

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='GraceUk' timestamp='1305995276' post='2244208']
There are so many interesting and moving posts here. I've never visited either a Carmelite or Poor Clare convent but have read a few books such as A Right to Be Merry and My Beloved. I know both orders are enclosed and of course have different spirituality and saints. But do they have much in common. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Poor Clares seem to have more fun even though their lives are hard and the Carmelites come over as much more serious. Would anybody ever discern both orders?
[/quote]

I discerned with both. I think the amount of 'fun' depends more on the community than the order - we had times we laughed til we cried at recreation!

Carmelites are hermits living in a community. As such there is a lot of emphasis on solitude and they must not have a common workroom etc - until relatively recently most carmelites would work in their cells. On the whole, Carmelite cells are quite large. The Poor Clares have more emphasis on the community, will more often work together in a common workroom and as such often have smaller cells as they only really sleep there (though of course this will vary dramatically).

Carmelite prayer is mostly silent and solitary, aside from the Office there is very little spoken prayer. Poor Clares have more spoken prayer - set Franciscan prayers, litanies, rosary etc (some Carmels say the rosary together but by no means all).

When I was first discerning I considered the two to be fairly similar and couldn' t really explain why I felt it had to be Carmel for me. Since I have been out I tried a Poor Clares community again and this time the differences were like flashing neon lights - simply because I had grown used to Carmel and its ways. Personally I found there just wasn't enough time on my own and the spoken prayers irritated me - I just wanted to be alone with my God.

If you don't have strong feelings towards one or the other I would definately try both and see where God leads you.

[GraceUk]

Thanks very much for your really interesting reply. Sorry I didn't make it clear but I am a married person and was just wondering about the differences in the two orders. Many years ago I did discern a vocation but not with those orders. I did feel very drawn to one order in particular but didn't enter in the end. The main reason being parental oppositiion. My mother said I was making my Dad ill and his heart trouble would get worse if I carried on. I know that probably a pretty feeble reason. Nevertheless, I have always regretted not at least trying.

But what you say about even different houses within the same order being different I think it's certainly true. And I didn't realise the fine difference between the Carmelites having less community prayer than the Poor Clares.

Edited May 21, 2011 by GraceUk

[Yaatee]

[quote name='GraceUk' timestamp='1306001686' post='2244239']
Thanks very much for your really interesting reply. Sorry I didn't make it clear but I am a married person and was just wondering about the differences in the two orders. Many years ago I did discern a vocation but not with those orders. I did feel very drawn to one order in particular but didn't enter in the end. The main reason being parental oppositiion. My mother said I was making my Dad ill and his heart trouble would get worse if I carried on. I know that probably a pretty feeble reason. Nevertheless, I have always regretted not at least trying.

But what you say about even different houses within the same order being different I think it's certainly true. And I didn't realise the fine difference between the Carmelites having less community prayer than the Poor Clares.
[/quote]

I am sorry that your parents laid a guilt trip on you, to use the common expression. What else could you do but not enter? Would if parents did this when a child 'threatens' to marry a certain person who would make an excellent spouse, or to leave the country for an excellent job? I think that sometimes parents can be very selfish and short-sighted.

[InPersonaChriste]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306003666' post='2244242']
I am sorry that your parents laid a guilt trip on you, to use the common expression. What else could you do but not enter? Would if parents did this when a child 'threatens' to marry a certain person who would make an excellent spouse, or to leave the country for an excellent job? I think that sometimes parents can be very selfish and short-sighted.
[/quote]

This is why I feel so blessed to have open parents for my vocation. Their prayer is that they never get in the way of our personal vocations and so far they haven't. Mind you have I been asked not to go so far away that I would never see them again.. poor guys. I think it is harder for the parent than the child when the time comes to start your life in the final vocation.

[MargaretTeresa]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306003666' post='2244242']
I am sorry that your parents laid a guilt trip on you, to use the common expression. What else could you do but not enter? Would if parents did this when a child 'threatens' to marry a certain person who would make an excellent spouse, or to leave the country for an excellent job? I think that sometimes parents can be very selfish and short-sighted.
[/quote]





[quote name='InPersonaChriste' timestamp='1306018762' post='2244305']
This is why I feel so blessed to have open parents for my vocation. Their prayer is that they never get in the way of our personal vocations and so far they haven't. Mind you have I been asked not to go so far away that I would never see them again.. poor guys. I think it is harder for the parent than the child when the time comes to start your life in the final vocation.
[/quote]

I am discerning right now, but my parents def don't know it. And my mom is still so against my having joined the church that she avoids the topic at all costs. She tried to guilt trip me into waiting, but I figure that I am at an age (21) that it is my own decision.

On a happy note, I've got it narrowed between two types of communities, and now I just need to visit. While the active community draws me and really utilizes my talents, the contemplative one would allow me to definitely learn iconography and give me time to process so many prayers for my family and friends.

[AccountDeleted]

faithcecelia did a great job of describing the main differences between Carmelite and Poor Clare communities. I was very attracted to the Poor Clares and discerned with them for awhile but the reason I chose Carmel is because of that need to be alone as well. Poor Clares aren't usually allowed to go back to their cell during the day, and they do have a lot more interaction with their sisters (sharing the common workroom for one). The Carmelites are encouraged to go back to their cells if not needed elsewhere, in fact it is in the Constitutions to do so. The cell is a very special place where one is alone with God, not just a room for sleeping. They are definitely 'hermits in community'.

Recreation for most religious is a time of relaxation and Carmelites do a lot of laughing during Recreation. It is very much a release after all the silence, as well as a time for bonding with one's sisters. Some communities are more structured than others, even at Recreation, and I found this made Recreation a bit of a penance, but in the ones where there is more freedom, it can be very refreshing.

And I know that parents don't realize what they are doing sometimes when they block a vocation. My mother was appalled that I wanted to become a Christian, let alone a nun. Her words were, "What a waste of a life" She was very anti-religion -- any religion at all, although she was a very spiritual woman for all that. She just hated organized religion for all the evils it has caused over the centuries. I think I delayed my vocation for her sake as well as for other reasons, because I knew it would relaly upset her - and while she was alive I was only investigating active communities like the Missionaries of Charity. If she had lived to see my join the Carmelites -- well, I don't know what she would have said to that!! So you aren't alone in having opposition to your vocation.

But if you have a family now, you can pass on your love for God to them; that is a truly valuable thing that can be done. Just remember that if one of your children wants to pursue a religious vocation - try to be supportive the way you would have wanted!

[Yaatee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306032770' post='2244386']
faithcecelia did a great job of describing the main differences between Carmelite and Poor Clare communities. I was very attracted to the Poor Clares and discerned with them for awhile but the reason I chose Carmel is because of that need to be alone as well. Poor Clares aren't usually allowed to go back to their cell during the day, and they do have a lot more interaction with their sisters (sharing the common workroom for one). The Carmelites are encouraged to go back to their cells if not needed elsewhere, in fact it is in the Constitutions to do so. The cell is a very special place where one is alone with God, not just a room for sleeping. They are definitely 'hermits in community'.

Recreation for most religious is a time of relaxation and Carmelites do a lot of laughing during Recreation. It is very much a release after all the silence, as well as a time for bonding with one's sisters. Some communities are more structured than others, even at Recreation, and I found this made Recreation a bit of a penance, but in the ones where there is more freedom, it can be very refreshing.

And I know that parents don't realize what they are doing sometimes when they block a vocation. My mother was appalled that I wanted to become a Christian, let alone a nun. Her words were, "What a waste of a life" She was very anti-religion -- any religion at all, although she was a very spiritual woman for all that. She just hated organized religion for all the evils it has caused over the centuries. I think I delayed my vocation for her sake as well as for other reasons, because I knew it would relaly upset her - and while she was alive I was only investigating active communities like the Missionaries of Charity. If she had lived to see my join the Carmelites -- well, I don't know what she would have said to that!! So you aren't alone in having opposition to your vocation.

But if you have a family now, you can pass on your love for God to them; that is a truly valuable thing that can be done. Just remember that if one of your children wants to pursue a religious vocation - try to be supportive the way you would have wanted!
[/quote]

The standard 1990 and maybe 1991 Carmel appears to have TWO one hour periods of recreation a day. I am sure that this is often used for needlework, work outside, etc. I do think that it would be a bit of a penance, especially because it cuts into sleep time! However, I note that the CCA Carmels with modified habits often combine recreation into a talking meal at dinner or supper, which I think might be a good solution. These Carmels appear to include the two one hour periods of silent prayer which is a hallmark of Carmel, and therefore to me, appear to preserve the spirit of Carmel.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306033715' post='2244396']
The standard 1990 and maybe 1991 Carmel appears to have TWO one hour periods of recreation a day. I am sure that this is often used for needlework, work outside, etc. I do think that it would be a bit of a penance, especially because it cuts into sleep time! However, I note that the CCA Carmels with modified habits often combine recreation into a talking meal at dinner or supper, which I think might be a good solution. These Carmels appear to include the two one hour periods of silent prayer which is a hallmark of Carmel, and therefore to me, appear to preserve the spirit of Carmel.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'cuts into sleep time'. The four Carmels I have been in have all insisted on seven hours of sleep at night because it is in the constitutions, and all of them have also had two one-hour sessions of mental prayer, although some insist on this being done in the choir and others allow the sister to go to a hermitage in the grounds or back to one's cell. All of them have also had two one-hour Recreations, one after lunch and one after dinner (dinner and supper in England ).

What I meant by a penance was that some Prioresses structure the Recreation hour so that all questions have to go through her, and sisters aren't allowed to talk to each other directly, some allow sisters to talk to the one on the right or the left but not across the circle, and others allow a combination of both, with general talking being allowed and sisters allowed to change seats if they want. It wasn't very relaxing when there was a lot of structure associated with Recreation.

At all of them however, we had to have either 'work' with us or 'little work' on Sundays and solemnities. Work was anything related to one's office, such as the Linen Office, Habit Office, Sacristy, printing etc and could include such things as sewing or repairs, darning socks (yes, some Carmels still do this), making Rosaries, folding greeting cards etc. Little work was usually things done in preparation for Mother's Feast Day like knitting, crocheting, embroidery etc. We were told that the work should not be so complex that it took all of our attention however, because the whole point of Recreation time was to be with our sisters. This was hard for me because I was given repair sewing to do and I am not good at it anyway and I would make more mistakes because I couldn't concentrate on it during discussions. It didn't matter, but it meant it took a long time for me to get things done!

At the communities where Recreation was less structured, I did enjoy it very much because I am a great talker (and listener) when with others. It was only the highly structured ones I didn't like because they seemed so artificial.

[Yaatee]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306051292' post='2244445']
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'cuts into sleep time'. The four Carmels I have been in have all insisted on seven hours of sleep at night because it is in the constitutions, and all of them have also had two one-hour sessions of mental prayer, although some insist on this being done in the choir and others allow the sister to go to a hermitage in the grounds or back to one's cell. All of them have also had two one-hour Recreations, one after lunch and one after dinner (dinner and supper in England ).

What I meant by a penance was that some Prioresses structure the Recreation hour so that all questions have to go through her, and sisters aren't allowed to talk to each other directly, some allow sisters to talk to the one on the right or the left but not across the circle, and others allow a combination of both, with general talking being allowed and sisters allowed to change seats if they want. It wasn't very relaxing when there was a lot of structure associated with Recreation.

At all of them however, we had to have either 'work' with us or 'little work' on Sundays and solemnities. Work was anything related to one's office, such as the Linen Office, Habit Office, Sacristy, printing etc and could include such things as sewing or repairs, darning socks (yes, some Carmels still do this), making Rosaries, folding greeting cards etc. Little work was usually things done in preparation for Mother's Feast Day like knitting, crocheting, embroidery etc. We were told that the work should not be so complex that it took all of our attention however, because the whole point of Recreation time was to be with our sisters. This was hard for me because I was given repair sewing to do and I am not good at it anyway and I would make more mistakes because I couldn't concentrate on it during discussions. It didn't matter, but it meant it took a long time for me to get things done!

At the communities where Recreation was less structured, I did enjoy it very much because I am a great talker (and listener) when with others. It was only the highly structured ones I didn't like because they seemed so artificial.
[/quote]

I agree that a structured recreation wouldn't necessarily be much of a recreation. I have read of Carmelite horaria with only 6 hours of sleep with time for a siesta during the day--this would be a summer schedule, also with two one hour recreation periods, two one hour periods of silent prayer, meals, the office, work. A full day--on six hours of sleep and a real nap if you were lucky.

[InPersonaChriste]

I think it depends on the person as well. Recreation periods are different for everyone. For me, well, I guess laughing and working would be my ideal.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306075223' post='2244460']
I agree that a structured recreation wouldn't necessarily be much of a recreation. I have read of Carmelite horaria with only 6 hours of sleep with time for a siesta during the day--this would be a summer schedule, also with two one hour recreation periods, two one hour periods of silent prayer, meals, the office, work. A full day--on six hours of sleep and a real nap if you were lucky.
[/quote]

Yes, six would be hard. The ones I was in got up at 5am and went to bed at 10pm so we had seven hours and we got a one hour nap after the midday meal and recreation - a much needed one for sure. The whole day ended up around 14 hours of non stop work - very tiring indeed so that nap was much appreciated - it broke the day into two seven hour days instead!

[faithcecelia]

I was very grateful that we were allowed to use siesta for walks - I am a chronic insomniac and 7hrs 'sleep' was my penance!

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1306076486' post='2244467']
Yes, six would be hard. The ones I was in got up at 5am and went to bed at 10pm so we had seven hours and we got a one hour nap after the midday meal and recreation - a much needed one for sure. The whole day ended up around 14 hours of non stop work - very tiring indeed so that nap was much appreciated -[b] it broke the day into two seven hour days instead![/b]
[/quote]

When I stayed for a week with my sisters (active), they also had a siesta inserted into the day and what you say is very true- it made the day feel like [i]two[/i] days. Quite refreshing, I found!

Curious- do [i]all[/i] Carmels have a siesta? Or just the ones that originated from Spain? (I think I remember reading one of you all saying most Carmels were either originated in Spain or France?)

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1306077816' post='2244471']
When I stayed for a week with my sisters (active), they also had a siesta inserted into the day and what you say is very true- it made the day feel like [i]two[/i] days. Quite refreshing, I found!

Curious- do [i]all[/i] Carmels have a siesta? Or just the ones that originated from Spain? (I think I remember reading one of you all saying most Carmels were either originated in Spain or France?)
[/quote]


All Carmels originated in Spain (St Teresa of Avila, remember?) and then went to France and Belgium. The UK Carmels were all started from either France (most of them) or Belgium. I think most of the Australian ones came from Belgium but I would have to research that, I'm not sure.