Let's Begin At The Very Beginning...

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305909004' post='2243865']
Darlington Carmel hasn't closed. The nuns have just moved into a smaller monastery, as the upkeep of their old one was getting too much for them. They were offered the opportunity to disperse between other Carmels, or to amalgamate, but they were quite clear that they wanted to remain in Darlington. They are on Cleveland Avenue now. The story of their move is available [url="http://www.carmelite.org/index.php?nuc=news&func=view&item=291"]here[/url].

The [url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/"]official website[/url] of the Carmelite nuns in Britain shows that the Golders Green nuns are sharing a monastery with the Preston sisters whilst retaining their own identity as the Community of the Holy Family. I stumbled on a blog post about Darlington's supposed closure several weeks ago, written by the lady who maintains that Cloister Outreach site, and it made me feel a little cross - what if somebody living in North East England comes across it and goes away thinking that Darlington Carmel really has closed? The best source of information on British Carmels are the British Carmels themselves. I don't think it's good to take community news from anyone other than the sisters in the community, just for reliability's sake.
[/quote]


Thanks for this clarification, I was 99% sure that was the case with Darlington but had not had the chance to look into it further. I do feel slightly unsettled by the amount of statements being made on here that are inaccurate and could potentially lead aspirants to believe the community they feel drawn to no longer exists.

[Yaatee]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1305910863' post='2243875']
Thanks for this clarification, I was 99% sure that was the case with Darlington but had not had the chance to look into it further. I do feel slightly unsettled by the amount of statements being made on here that are inaccurate and could potentially lead aspirants to believe the community they feel drawn to no longer exists.
[/quote]

I hope that the British Carmels [i]will [/i]provide up-to-date information to any and all inquirers, of their or other carmels in the UK, keep their websites up to date or develop them, and answer all inquiries in a timely fashion. I have been surprised at the posts in the recent communications thread on VS about the difficulties in communicating with religious communities.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305909004' post='2243865']
Darlington Carmel hasn't closed. The nuns have just moved into a smaller monastery, as the upkeep of their old one was getting too much for them. They were offered the opportunity to disperse between other Carmels, or to amalgamate, but they were quite clear that they wanted to remain in Darlington. They are on Cleveland Avenue now. The story of their move is available [url="http://www.carmelite.org/index.php?nuc=news&func=view&item=291"]here[/url].

The [url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/"]official website[/url] of the Carmelite nuns in Britain shows that the Golders Green nuns are sharing a monastery with the Preston sisters whilst retaining their own identity as the Community of the Holy Family. I stumbled on a blog post about Darlington's supposed closure several weeks ago, written by the lady who maintains that Cloister Outreach site, and it made me feel a little cross - what if somebody living in North East England comes across it and goes away thinking that Darlington Carmel really has closed? The best source of information on British Carmels are the British Carmels themselves. I don't think it's good to take community news from anyone other than the sisters in the community, just for reliability's sake.
[/quote]

Perhaps it would be more charitable not to personalize this discussion? I'm sure that everyone who posts here does so in good faith with the information that they have at the time. Since Darlington Carmel has moved to smaller accommodation and is no longer taking applicants (from a first hand source), they are in effect 'closing down' over time. When the last nun has gone to her reward, there will be no more Darlington Carmel, so I think that poster was correct. Perhaps there are ways to say these things that sound less harsh, but the fact is that most of the English Carmels are in serious trouble with vocations, and it will be necessary for several of them to merge (or amalgamate if that is a preferred term) if they are going to continue. A convent of two or three elderly nuns is facing great difficulties, and when they stop taking applicants, well, the end is inevitable.

As for the best source of information being the British Carmels themselves... not so. The UK Carmel site hasn't been updated in a long time. If you look at the Wolverhampton photo album, you will see yours truly - me - as a postulant there. I took those photos one day in the garden (another sister took the ones with me in them) with my own camera in 2007 and I had no idea that they would end up on that site (no one asked my permission). Four years later, my photos are still there, and I have moved on. At least one of the sisters is no longer with WV either, she has moved to Sclerder Carmel and there have been some other changes as well that are not reflected. WV is not the only UK Carmel that has not updated their website or their photos in a very long time (KE is exactly the same as when I entered), and the generic UK Carmel site that show all of the Carmels, does not stay current either. It would be lovely if it did because I often check back there to see if things have been updated, and am always disappointed. The best source of information is word of mouth here on phatmass since we often have posters who have visited a community recently or who still have sister friends who give them info.

So let's not get "cross" at anyone on here for posting their own observations about UK Carmels. If the Carmels want us to have timely information about them, they should make sure that they get someone to update their sites... and the general UK one as well!! And Cloister Outreach does have some interesting info on it - I have read about communities that are no longer accepting applicants (not just Carmels) and that has been a big help to me in my current discernment. I know there is a 'history' of disagreement here with Cloister Outreach but perhaps we could practice a little forbearance and kindness with each other?

And if anyone has more recent info about Darlington Carmel that would be great, but a source who wanted to apply with them and who spoke with one of the sisters was told that their accommodation is too small to accept applicants, and that they even have to go out for Mass. This does sound like 'closing down' to me, although perhaps they haven't been formally suppressed yet.

Edited May 21, 2011 by nunsense

[organwerke]

Thank you nunsense for your post.
It would be nice also to see someone apologizing with Studium for their harsh posts.
First of all Studium's intention was only good, she simply wanted to help people here in their discernment, avoiding them to be disappointed knowing that some Carmels they feel drawn to do not accept aspirants.
Second, she has first hand informations about Darlington: they do not accept aspirants and directs vocations to Preston.
If those who replied really want accurate informations they have simply to call Darlington and ask: they will see that Studium's informations are right.

Edited May 21, 2011 by organwerke

[Yaatee]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1306003461' post='2244241']
Thank you nunsense for your post.
It would be nice also to see someone apologizing with Studium for their harsh posts.
First of all Studium's intention was only good, she simply wanted to help people here in their discernment, avoiding them to be disappointed knowing that some Carmels they feel drawn to do not accept aspirants.
Second, she has first hand informations about Darlington: they do not accept aspirants and directs vocations to Preston.
If those who replied really want accurate informations they have simply to call Darlington and ask: they will see that Studium's informations are right.
[/quote]

In support of everyone, I must say that the English Carmels aren't making it easy to keep up with them. Perhaps this is deliberate, as things appear to be in such flux.

That said, I can understand a reluctance simply to call them up on the phone. First of all, you may be interrupting them. Then there are the awkward questions.

"Hello. Are you still open? Are you taking candidates? What are you like? What's your horarium? Are you 1990 or 1991?"

It's common politeness to answer email and especially, snail mail. If necessary, a printed response is adequate ( preferably signed!)

Edited May 21, 2011 by Yaatee

[organwerke]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306004242' post='2244245']
In support of everyone, I must say that the English Carmels aren't making it easy to keep up with them. Perhaps this is deliberate, as things appear to be in such flux.

That said, I can understand a reluctance simply to call them up on the phone. First of all, you may be interrupting them. Then there are the awkward questions.

"Hello. Are you still open? Are you taking candidates? What are you like? What's your horarium? Are you 1990 or 1991?"

It's common politeness to answer email and especially, snail mail. If necessary, a printed response is adequate ( preferably signed!)
[/quote]

I said "call" and could have said "contact" but the problem isn't this, what I was trying to say is that there is the first hand experience of two persons who had contacts with Darlington (very close contacts) and were directed to Preston. You can't say an information is false if you don't know that.
beatitude said "The best source of information on British Carmels are the British Carmels themselves", well: the information of Studium is of a person who had the infromation directly from the Carmel, not internet or other: personal contact.
Hope this is now clearer.

[faithcecelia]

Although the site mentioned has a seperate section for communities that are no longer accepting aspirants, so maybe that would be the best place to put Darlington as it is still open.

I have personally been in touch with 9 of the UK Carmels this year (inc both Preston and Darlington) and have had no problems getting a response from any of them, even if the response was in one case 'heres a reply to tell you I don't have time to reply'!

The only community I personally have had no reply at all from was the Benedictines at both Stanbrook Abbey and Tyburn, although I found out that at that time Tyburn had been told not to accept aspirants so that might have explained it. Either way, I took it as a sign I wasn't meant to be a Benedictine!

[Yaatee]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1306005070' post='2244250']
Although the site mentioned has a seperate section for communities that are no longer accepting aspirants, so maybe that would be the best place to put Darlington as it is still open.

I have personally been in touch with 9 of the UK Carmels this year (inc both Preston and Darlington) and have had no problems getting a response from any of them, even if the response was in one case 'heres a reply to tell you I don't have time to reply'!

The only community I personally have had no reply at all from was the Benedictines at both Stanbrook Abbey and Tyburn, although I found out that at that time Tyburn had been told not to accept aspirants so that might have explained it. Either way, I took it as a sign I wasn't meant to be a Benedictine!
[/quote]

Ha! That brings [i]me[/i] up short! It also will make [i]you[/i] the [i]de facto [/i]expert on English Carmels (or most of them!).

...I am sure that you know that Stanbrook has moved into a modern, LEEDS certified monastery --this may explain their non-response --tho' that's a feeble excuse!

Arne you su-ure you aren't called to be a Benedictine?


...why is Tyburn not accepting aspirants? Have they run out of room?

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Yaatee' timestamp='1306005534' post='2244252']
Ha! That brings [i]me[/i] up short! It also will make [i]you[/i] the [i]de facto [/i]expert on English Carmels (or most of them!).

...I am sure that you know that Stanbrook has moved into a modern, LEEDS certified monastery --this may explain their non-response --tho' that's a feeble excuse!

Arne you su-ure you aren't called to be a Benedictine?


...why is Tyburn not accepting aspirants? Have they run out of room?
[/quote]


Its 6yrs since I was contacting the benedictines. I didn't know the full details re Tyburn, hopefully the problems have been resolved now. Yes, I have seen some lovely photos of the new Stanbrook - Quidenham and Stanbrook have been closely linked for many years with Q's prioress and S's abbess visiting the other community for some weeks back in the 70s I think - there is a lovely photo somewhere of the abbess in a Carmelite habit after her own got caked in mud on a walk!

Yes, definately sure - I go to mass most weekdays at St Cecilia's and while I like their liturgy to some extent, I have no desire to look further there - in spite of their attempts to get me to.

[Studiumecclesiae]

Ok I'll try to explain the situation from what I know. I contacted Darlington when they were facing enclosure and refuse to take me to visit them. T'was when I was after Carmel.

Darlington suffered a number of deaths in a short space of time which dramatically reduced their numbers, at the same time they couldn't replace their chaplain and were forced to go out for Mass.

It was ok for a while, but difficult as the public always wanted to talk to them for ages afterwards. The Parish Church had no grille to protect them, so they couldn't make their thanksgiving and protect their Carmelite separation in peace.
Some sisters found that having to go out into public so much, was not what they believed their Carmelite vocation to be and felt that they couldn't continue. The community seperated.

Some sisters of Darlington decided to transfer to other convents. A small group of about four sisters, decided to remain in a small house in Darlington and continue to go out for Mass.
But the thing to remember is that the community, as it was at Darlington, is not simply living at another address. The community has split and the small house in Darlington is not in a position to accept aspirants. Discerners are now told to contact Preston.

Pax +
StudiumEcclesiae

Edited May 22, 2011 by Studiumecclesiae

[Yaatee]

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1306089725' post='2244495']
Ok I'll try to explain the situation from what I know. I contacted Darlington when they were facing enclosure and refuse to take me to visit them. T'was when I was after Carmel.

Darlington suffered a number of deaths in a short space of time which dramatically reduced their numbers, at the same time they couldn't replace their chaplain and were forced to go out for Mass.

It was ok for a while, but difficult as the public always wanted to talk to them for ages afterwards. The Parish Church had no grille to protect them, so they couldn't make their thanksgiving and protect their Carmelite separation in peace.
Some sisters found that having to go out into public so much, was not what they believed their Carmelite vocation to be and felt that they couldn't continue. The community seperated.

Some sisters of Darlington decided to transfer to other convents. A small group of about four sisters, decided to remain in a small house in Darlington and continue to go out for Mass.
But the thing to remember is that the community, as it was at Darlington, is not simply living at another address. The community has split and the small house in Darlington is not in a position to accept aspirants. Discerners are now told to contact Preston.

Pax +
StudiumEcclesiae
[/quote]


Very sad situation. I hope it can be resolved soon.

[beatitude]

Hi Studium,

I'm sorry for being snappish with you. I didn't realise that you were speaking from personal experience - I thought you were just going from what you'd read on the Internet. Of course, this is no excuse for irritability on my part.

During my illness I was treated at a hospital in Darlington and I got to know the Carmel then. One of the other patients had a cousin who was considering entrance with them, and I prayed for her and for more vocations to the community. The sisters were preparing to downsize at this point, and her enquiry was definitely being considered - she said nothing to me about being asked to contact Preston instead. Sadly my fellow patient died, and I lost contact with her cousin after that. Maybe I will bump into her in Carmel one day.

Hi Nunsense,

When I wrote about the need to rely on the Carmels themselves for information, I meant personal contact with nuns (letter, phone call, e-mail). There is quite a bit of contradictory information online, which is why I never trust it absolutely. The contact details on UK Carmel's main website are kept very up-to-date, which is the most important thing for me - I see the photos as an attempt to provide a flavour of Carmelite life, not a precise visual representation of who is in the community at any given moment. I know some of the bigger American communities publish current photos of all their postulants and novices, amending them if people leave, but that's not something that's important to me - I don't consider it essential that I know the comings and goings of the monastery.