We Are All Sinners?

[infinitelord1]

please provide scripture, catechism, church father references.

i may provide a counterargument just to get a response.

i know some protestants believe that once you become a Christian that you will not want to sin anymore. And you if you do sin then you may have never been a Christian in the first place. Thats why I ask this question.

[MithLuin]

I do not have many references at the moment, sorry.

But I will say that the idea is right. Conversion refers to a change of the heart. You literally [i]don't want to[/i] sin any more once you accept God's will and align your heart to what He desires.

Now, the reality is that this is a lifelong journey that will only be complete in heaven, where we see God face to face. While on this earth, we will continue to struggle with concupiscence, a product of our fallen nature.

So, the idea is correct. Becoming a Christian means you don't sin any more and don't even want to. But this does not happen when you take your first step towards following Jesus and accepting Him as lord of your life...it happens in heaven. Obviously, no one in heaven sins, and if you want to sin...you aren't ready to be there yet. A sobering thought!


Paul refers to the idea of concupiscence in the life of the Christian quite clearly in Romans:

[quote]For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. ... So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7: 19, 25[/quote]

If we know what is good and holy, that is the first step. [i]Wanting[/i] to be good and act in a holy manner is associated with becoming a Christian. Actually [i]doing[/i] what is good and holy is a good deal harder....and something all Christians continue to struggle with. Even St. Paul, who was a great preacher and devout Christian, found himself falling into sin at times.

The more 'saintly' a saint becomes, the more seldom they fall into grievous sin. But certainly there are many people who are sincere in their desire to follow Christ who are nonetheless still bound by certain sins. Much prayer and fasting, and even some suffering, may be necessary to drive that out.

[dairygirl4u2c]

not wanting to sin anymore and not sinning are different things. your first post says they will not want to sin, which i would tend to agree with, but hten it says they wont sin. no christian groups really say that, and in fact the opposite is true... they say we are all sinners. and we have always been sinners.
now, some will say that if you are sinning significantly etc etc, then you are not or may not really be a christian.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1305752549' post='2243319']
not wanting to sin anymore and not sinning are different things. your first post says they will not want to sin, which i would tend to agree with, but hten it says they wont sin. no christian groups really say that, and in fact the opposite is true... they say we are all sinners. and we have always been sinners.
now, some will say that if you are sinning significantly etc etc, then you are not or may not really be a christian.
[/quote]


I don't know....it seems to me that protestants are very judgmental in this area. They are the first to point fingers at people and accuse them of being fake christians. Ive been around many protestants in my life, and listened to the way they talk. Honestly I don't like the fact that people would sit there and question other peoples Christianity. But hey, it happens. I will say ive never heard a Catholic do that before.

[MithLuin]

I would say that lumping all Protestants together under the same umbrella is far from fair. But, yes, you will hear in some circles about the idea of an insincere conversion. It seems to me to be a reaction to the 'once saved, always saved' idea. If you buy into that, then you need a way to account for relapses, and some would say that you were never really saved in the first place.

Basically, understanding conversion as a process, not a single event like responding to an altar call, is another way of dealing with 'what happens when someone relapses?'

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1305771121' post='2243429']
I don't know....it seems to me that protestants are very judgmental in this area. They are the first to point fingers at people and accuse them of being fake christians. Ive been around many protestants in my life, and listened to the way they talk. Honestly I don't like the fact that people would sit there and question other peoples Christianity. But hey, it happens. I will say ive never heard a Catholic do that before.
[/quote]


You haven't been reaingthe debate forum too much have you. Happens to me all the time.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305784291' post='2243508']
You haven't been reaingthe debate forum too much have you. Happens to me all the time.
[/quote]


not sure why you say that

[infinitelord1]

Here is why some say that Christians do not sin...


Romans 5:14
Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned.
1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
3 John 11
He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305774568' post='2243452']
I would say that lumping all Protestants together under the same umbrella is far from fair. But, yes, you will hear in some circles about the idea of an insincere conversion. It seems to me to be a reaction to the 'once saved, always saved' idea. If you buy into that, then you need a way to account for relapses, and some would say that you were never really saved in the first place.

Basically, understanding conversion as a process, not a single event like responding to an altar call, is another way of dealing with 'what happens when someone relapses?'
[/quote]


Sorry....I should have said "some Protestants" even though from my experience it seems like "most Protestants".

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305774568' post='2243452']
I would say that lumping all Protestants together under the same umbrella is far from fair. But, yes, you will hear in some circles about the idea of an insincere conversion. It seems to me to be a reaction to the 'once saved, always saved' idea. If you buy into that, then you need a way to account for relapses, and some would say that you were never really saved in the first place.

Basically, understanding conversion as a process, not a single event like responding to an altar call, is another way of dealing with 'what happens when someone relapses?'
[/quote]
Yes, it's from the OSAS mindset, at least in my experience being raised in a OSAS tradition. You know, the idea with OSAS is that you can have complete confidence knowing that you're saved, but I found it to be nerve-wracking because if someone backslid a bit, then started coming back, they stated that they hadn't really been saved before but were this time. But they'd been so confident that they were saved before. Many of the people there would lambast Catholics for not believing in eternal security and not knowing, absolutely knowing, if they would be saved, but I must say I have more confidence, in a way, now than I did then. I guess because we teach that one can walk away and so we must stick close to God and stay close to the Sacraments and walk with Him so that we don't fall away.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305774568' post='2243452']
I would say that lumping all Protestants together under the same umbrella is far from fair. But, yes, you will hear in some circles about the idea of an insincere conversion. It seems to me to be a reaction to the 'once saved, always saved' idea. If you buy into that, then you need a way to account for relapses, and some would say that you were never really saved in the first place.

Basically, understanding conversion as a process, not a single event like responding to an altar call, is another way of dealing with 'what happens when someone relapses?'
[/quote]


It is unfair, but that unfair. Luther's motivation in breaking with the Church largely had to do with this issue, knowing he was saved, and abolishing fear of ones failure to be saved.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1305785042' post='2243510']
Here is why some say that Christians do not sin...


Romans 5:14
Death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned.
1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
3 John 11
He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
[/quote]


anyone know what these verses are saying?

[Skinzo]

Jesus understood some would sin again hence he gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation or Penance if you prefer. He counseled us to forgive others not just once but repeatedly. As St. John said : " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
One of the earliest known Christian prayers is one that was recited constantly in the Eastern Church: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on me a sinner" . This prayer probably goes back to the Desert Fathers. It's hard to think of the Desert Fathers callling themselves sinners but they did.
Now honestly most of the Evangelicals I have met don't think twice about it. Most of the ones I know don't seem to think twice about sinning because they are already "saved". I've known them to live with their spouse before marriage etc., because they're already "saved" so it's no problem. I suppose a truly good Christian does not want to sin anymore but being tempted and wanting to sin while resisting I think is two different things. I may want to have a steak on Good Friday but I know it's wrong so I don't.

S.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Skinzo

[TeresaBenedicta]

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1305954907' post='2244106']
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
[/quote]


I think we can all agree that "we have all sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God". but the question is...do Christians sin after becoming a Christian? And i'm wondering how we know this from scripture and other sources. I agree with what you are saying, and the Catholic Teaching. Im just wondering how to explain something like this to a Protestant. Chances are they will resort to the versus that I provided you.