Pope's 'reform Of The Reform' In Liturgy To Continue

[kafka]

I'm surprised noone has picked up on this here:
[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101922.htm"]Pope's 'reform of the reform' to continue, say Cardinal[/url]

granted the media report is accurate here are some quotes and my thoughts:

Pope Benedict XVI's easing of restrictions on use of the 1962 Roman Missal, known as the Tridentine rite, is just the first step in a "reform of the reform" in liturgy, the Vatican's top ecumenist said.

[so Summorum Pontificum s just the first phase in a larger plan to reform the reform.]

The pope's long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to coexist, but to move toward a "common rite" that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms, Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said May 14.

[a common rite makes a lot of sense to me. That way we can let go and move forward in peace without Culture wars and divisions.]

In effect, the pope is launching a new liturgical reform movement, the cardinal said. Those who resist it, including "rigid" progressives, mistakenly view the Second Vatican Council as a rupture with the church's liturgical tradition, he said.

[liturgical abuses will be corrected once and for all.]

Cardinal Koch said Pope Benedict thinks the post-Vatican II liturgical changes have brought "many positive fruits" but also problems, including a focus on purely practical matters and a neglect of the paschal mystery in the Eucharistic celebration. The cardinal said it was legitimate to ask whether liturgical innovators had intentionally gone beyond the council's stated intentions.

[The many positive fruits of the OF can be retained along with all the positive fruits of the EF in a common rite which transcends the two.]

He said this explains why Pope Benedict has introduced a new reform movement, beginning with "Summorum Pontificum." The aim, he said, is to revisit Vatican II's teachings in liturgy and strengthen certain elements, including the Christological and sacrificial dimensions of the Mass.

[so we need to re-figure out exactly what Vatican II had in mind, strengthen what was good in the past, purge what is not good in the present, while not destroying either form.]

Cardinal Koch said "Summorum Pontificum" is "only the beginning of this new liturgical movement."

Knowing how God is and knowing how the Church is----this new liturgical movement will probably reach its culmination beyond the reign of Pope Benedict XVI. So I predict that there are going to be a few revolutions and revisions and liturgical wars on the way. For example the next Pope could be very conservative, but he might not be able to put into effect Pope Benedict's long view intentions because a common rite like this cannot simply spring forth in a short period of time. Then a subsequent Pope could be more liberal. Or a subsequent Pope might not focus on the liturgy at all. Plus it is becoming clear that eventually we will need another Council to decide on doctrinal matters and the liturgy would of course be a part of this council. So I dont see this whole movement finding an ultimate stability and resolution probably for decades, maybe thirty, forty, fifty years, or maybe when the "JPII generation" hits its peak in clerical life.

"In fact, Pope Benedict knows well that, in the long term, we cannot stop at a coexistence between the ordinary form and the extraordinary form of the Roman rite, but that in the future the church naturally will once again need a common rite," he said.

[This is very wise and forsightful and worthy of praise. But to get to this point will be long and difficult because the Church as a whole is not acting very spiritually mature at the present, e.g. lots of complexity and moral evils, some rejection and obstinate doubt of teachings of Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium, some liturgical abuses, some petty culture wars, lack of theological unity, some Catholics (maybe a majority in the West) not even practicing their Faith, and so on ad nauseum.]

"However, because a new liturgical reform cannot be decided theoretically, but requires a process of growth and purification, the pope for the moment is underlining above all that the two forms of the Roman rite can and should enrich each other," he said.

[So the Pope basically wants the two to be celebrated hand in hand to see what will be brought about in a dynamic and fluid process. He doesnt want us to fight over them.]


In conclusion, I am detached from liturgical forms. I do not preach them and it is not ultimately my job to decide what should remain and what should be purged, and what should grow and develop. And I dont have the mind for opinions on this matter, but I like the idea of a common rite. A common rite will ultimately set things in order and enable us to live in liturgical peace. Then we will focus on the weightier things, the more profound and meaningful things while not ommitting the lesser things.

I also think that this future common rite might be beyond our perceptions at the present, because the Church as a whole is undergoing some profound spiritual developments and maturations. The Holy Spirit is working very hard at the present. And I think if the first part of the Tribulation begins soon, like I have thought for a long time now, this sequence will affect the liturgical process. It is not a matter of what side of the culture war will win it is rather a matter of getting to where God wants us to be in the future. And this in spite of being rooted in the past in hermeneutic continuity, this I say is something beyond what anyone might think at the present, because the Church is continually being transfigured in Jesus, and ultimately all liturgical forms will be transfigured in the future world-age of the New Heaven and New Earth. There have been things happening in the Church over the past few decades that might not make sense for years and years to come.

{7:31} and those who use the things of this world, as if they were not using them. For the figure of this world is passing away.

{13:10} But when the perfect arrives, the imperfect passes away.

And this will not be the last liturgical movement or liturgical reform before Jesus Returns.

Alright well that was a bit disjointed, but my honest and open thoughts on the subject. . .

GO!!!

[cmotherofpirl]

I was just about to post the article I think its wonderful!!!

[kafka]

I think this is a brilliant Papa Benedict idea. I never knew he had an intention for a common rite up until I read that last night. Its like trinitarian. Let a common rite proceed from the extraordinary form and the ordinary form. Beautiful. Let the two go hand in hand for a time, make love and see what sort of baby we get all while we continue to develop as a Church. Alright that was a bit far but oh well.

[Groo the Wanderer]

LOL I had thought/hoped that was the case when he issued the Moto Propio.



YAY!!

[Debra Little]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1305723334' post='2243156']
I'm surprised noone has picked up on this here:
[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101922.htm"]Pope's 'reform of the reform' to continue, say Cardinal[/url]

granted the media report is accurate here are some quotes and my thoughts:

Pope Benedict XVI's easing of restrictions on use of the 1962 Roman Missal, known as the Tridentine rite, is just the first step in a "reform of the reform" in liturgy, the Vatican's top ecumenist said.

[so Summorum Pontificum s just the first phase in a larger plan to reform the reform.]

The pope's long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to coexist, but to move toward a "common rite" that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms, Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said May 14.

[a common rite makes a lot of sense to me. That way we can let go and move forward in peace without Culture wars and divisions.]

In effect, the pope is launching a new liturgical reform movement, the cardinal said. Those who resist it, including "rigid" progressives, mistakenly view the Second Vatican Council as a rupture with the church's liturgical tradition, he said.

[liturgical abuses will be corrected once and for all.]

Cardinal Koch said Pope Benedict thinks the post-Vatican II liturgical changes have brought "many positive fruits" but also problems, including a focus on purely practical matters and a neglect of the paschal mystery in the Eucharistic celebration. The cardinal said it was legitimate to ask whether liturgical innovators had intentionally gone beyond the council's stated intentions.

[The many positive fruits of the OF can be retained along with all the positive fruits of the EF in a common rite which transcends the two.]

He said this explains why Pope Benedict has introduced a new reform movement, beginning with "Summorum Pontificum." The aim, he said, is to revisit Vatican II's teachings in liturgy and strengthen certain elements, including the Christological and sacrificial dimensions of the Mass.

[so we need to re-figure out exactly what Vatican II had in mind, strengthen what was good in the past, purge what is not good in the present, while not destroying either form.]

Cardinal Koch said "Summorum Pontificum" is "only the beginning of this new liturgical movement."

Knowing how God is and knowing how the Church is----this new liturgical movement will probably reach its culmination beyond the reign of Pope Benedict XVI. So I predict that there are going to be a few revolutions and revisions and liturgical wars on the way. For example the next Pope could be very conservative, but he might not be able to put into effect Pope Benedict's long view intentions because a common rite like this cannot simply spring forth in a short period of time. Then a subsequent Pope could be more liberal. Or a subsequent Pope might not focus on the liturgy at all. Plus it is becoming clear that eventually we will need another Council to decide on doctrinal matters and the liturgy would of course be a part of this council. So I dont see this whole movement finding an ultimate stability and resolution probably for decades, maybe thirty, forty, fifty years, or maybe when the "JPII generation" hits its peak in clerical life.

"In fact, Pope Benedict knows well that, in the long term, we cannot stop at a coexistence between the ordinary form and the extraordinary form of the Roman rite, but that in the future the church naturally will once again need a common rite," he said.

[This is very wise and forsightful and worthy of praise. But to get to this point will be long and difficult because the Church as a whole is not acting very spiritually mature at the present, e.g. lots of complexity and moral evils, some rejection and obstinate doubt of teachings of Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium, some liturgical abuses, some petty culture wars, lack of theological unity, some Catholics (maybe a majority in the West) not even practicing their Faith, and so on ad nauseum.]

"However, because a new liturgical reform cannot be decided theoretically, but requires a process of growth and purification, the pope for the moment is underlining above all that the two forms of the Roman rite can and should enrich each other," he said.

[So the Pope basically wants the two to be celebrated hand in hand to see what will be brought about in a dynamic and fluid process. He doesnt want us to fight over them.]


In conclusion, I am detached from liturgical forms. I do not preach them and it is not ultimately my job to decide what should remain and what should be purged, and what should grow and develop. And I dont have the mind for opinions on this matter, but I like the idea of a common rite. A common rite will ultimately set things in order and enable us to live in liturgical peace. Then we will focus on the weightier things, the more profound and meaningful things while not ommitting the lesser things.

I also think that this future common rite might be beyond our perceptions at the present, because the Church as a whole is undergoing some profound spiritual developments and maturations. The Holy Spirit is working very hard at the present. And I think if the first part of the Tribulation begins soon, like I have thought for a long time now, this sequence will affect the liturgical process. It is not a matter of what side of the culture war will win it is rather a matter of getting to where God wants us to be in the future. And this in spite of being rooted in the past in hermeneutic continuity, this I say is something beyond what anyone might think at the present, because the Church is continually being transfigured in Jesus, and ultimately all liturgical forms will be transfigured in the future world-age of the New Heaven and New Earth. There have been things happening in the Church over the past few decades that might not make sense for years and years to come.

{7:31} and those who use the things of this world, as if they were not using them. For the figure of this world is passing away.

{13:10} But when the perfect arrives, the imperfect passes away.

And this will not be the last liturgical movement or liturgical reform before Jesus Returns.

Alright well that was a bit disjointed, but my honest and open thoughts on the subject. . .

GO!!!
[/quote]




just what we need. more modernism!

[Noel's angel]

This is what I've been hoping for.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1305750179' post='2243306']
This is what I've been hoping for.
[/quote]


[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1305750097' post='2243305']
just what we need. more modernism!
[/quote]
what's that now?

[Lisa]

Fantastic Papa!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1305750097' post='2243305']
just what we need. more modernism!
[/quote]
Oh right, I forgot that only the form of that Mass that existed when Pope St. Eusebius was around was the valid one. Too bad organic growth and development of the liturgy renders it invalid and none of us have had valid sacraments for 1700 years.

[Skinzo]

I think this is only Cardinal Koch's opinion and in his current position he has nothing to do with liturgy. The Vatican has denied that any plans are underway for "reform of the reform".

S.

[kafka]

[quote name='Skinzo' timestamp='1305753475' post='2243322']
I think this is only Cardinal Koch's opinion and in his current position he has nothing to do with liturgy. The Vatican has denied that any plans are underway for "reform of the reform".

S.
[/quote]
I dont know all the ins and outs of how the bureaucracy, politics, conferences and media works over there and who speaks for who, but still it is a good idea. And to be honest Pope Benedict has [i]implicitly[/i] launched a liturgical reform of the reform by means of the Motu Proprio. It doesnt matter if the Vatican admits to it or not. Stuff is happening. And it would make sense that Pope Benedict would have a long term plan like a common rite. And he doesnt have to make his intentions immediately transparent. Maybe he is easing into to making them more transparent, by different means such as this conference. In any case here is what the article recorded:

"Cardinal Koch made the remarks [b]at a Rome conference on "Summorum Pontificum," [/b]Pope Benedict's 2007 apostolic letter that offered wider latitude for use of the Tridentine rite. [b]The cardinal's text was published the same day by L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper[/b]."

If this is pure opinion of Cardinal Koch I still hold by what he said as positive input. I dont see how the EF and OF could co-exist until Jesus Returns. A common rite makes a lot of sense to me as a Catholic living in his early thirties who has been on both sides of the fence. It is very reasonable and forward thinking.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1305762489' post='2243369']
I dont know all the ins and outs of how the bureaucracy, politics, conferences and media works over there and who speaks for who, but still it is a good idea. And to be honest Pope Benedict has [i]implicitly[/i] launched a liturgical reform of the reform by means of the Motu Proprio. It doesnt matter if the Vatican admits to it or not. Stuff is happening. And it would make sense that Pope Benedict would have a long term plan like a common rite. And he doesnt have to make his intentions immediately transparent. Maybe he is easing into to making them more transparent, by different means such as this conference. In any case here is what the article recorded:

"Cardinal Koch made the remarks [b]at a Rome conference on "Summorum Pontificum," [/b]Pope Benedict's 2007 apostolic letter that offered wider latitude for use of the Tridentine rite. [b]The cardinal's text was published the same day by L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper[/b]."

If this is pure opinion of Cardinal Koch I still hold by what he said as positive input. I dont see how the EF and OF could co-exist until Jesus Returns. A common rite makes a lot of sense to me as a Catholic living in his early thirties who has been on both sides of the fence. It is very reasonable and forward thinking.
[/quote]
The Vatican has repeatedly denied any plans for liturgical reform. I also don't see how practically the OF can influence the EF or vice versa. As the situation stands those who wish to attend the EF will do so. Those who wish to attend the OF will do so. What else can happen? They are not going to interact with each other. How can one affect the other? The pope himself has not addressed the issue. The opinions of cardinals can certainly vary and conflict with each other. Some who prefer the OF in fact don't like the EF. at all. Some who prefer the EF don't like the OF at all.

S.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1305723334' post='2243156']
The pope's long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to coexist, but to move toward a "common rite" that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms, Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said May 14.

[a common rite makes a lot of sense to me. That way we can let go and move forward in peace without Culture wars and divisions.]

[/quote]

But didn't the pope say a few years ago that we should stop talking in terms of new rite & old rite, or latin rite and vernacular rite, because they are simply two forms of the same Mass? I don't know - I suppose the reporter may not have meant to say old and new rites - it's just a pet peeve of mine to see things like that.

That said, in my opinion, it might be neat if there ended up being one form in the future.


edit: spelling correction.

Edited May 19, 2011 by fides quarens intellectum

[MissScripture]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' timestamp='1305764782' post='2243380']
But didn't the pope say a few years ago that we should stop talking in terms of new rite & old rite, or latin rite and vernacular rite, because they are simply two forms of the same Mass? I don't know - I suppose the reporter may not have meant to say old and new rites - it's just a pet peeve of mine to see things like that.

That said, in my opinion, it might be neat if there ended up being one form in the future.


edit: spelling correction.
[/quote]

Except then wouldn't people still complain that things were changed?

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1305764913' post='2243381']
Except then wouldn't people still complain that things were changed?
[/quote]

well, we have to have something to complain about, don't we?