Communicating With Religious Communities

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1306162588' post='2244858']
I guess I disagree Yaatee (that seems to be all I am doing lately ). Why assume these communities who don't respond are "rude"? They didn't respond for whatever reason (God knows, and he is the final judge) so I say the inquirer should just move on. It seems to me when an inquirer is harping on why they didn't receive a reply, it borders on an attitude of entitlement and if that is the case, than that can only hurt the inquirer were they ever to become a postulant. I'm not accusing nunsense or anyone here of this; however, I do think it is something to consider because this "sense of entitlement" is very prevalant in our society today and often times I'm not so sure we are aware of it, We believe we are entitle to just about anything and everything. I guess I have read too much Eastern Theology and believe as the early Desert Fathers and monks did, and that is, in comparison to God and his glory, and all that He has given to us and continues to give to us, we are all entitled to very little if anything at all. I believe we have to keep our desires in check and should always keep our mortality and sinful condition ever in mind, again a teaching from the early Desert Fathers. We often convince ourselves that our desires are those of God's. That may or may not be the case. Humilty is advised to discern which is which.

In the end only God knows what we are truly entitled to and He will give us that and only that which will bring about salvation to our souls...If we trust Him we will respond accordingly to all that He brings us, the good, the bad, the ugly... That's what I believe.
[/quote]


Well, either there is a misunderstanding here or we just must agree to disagree, which is okay too. The Desert Fathers and Mothers were certainly wise people, but their situations were a little different than that of discerners trying to get a response from a religious community. They simply walked off into the desert and did their own thing.

As for the 'sense of entitlement' you mention, I don't see it this way at all. God didn't create us to be abased creatures of no worth at all. Surely, He is the all, the beginning and the end, and He desires only our good, but even Our Lord told the parable about the widow who beseiged the corrupt judge with her petitions night and day until she got what she wanted. He told us to do the same to Our Heavenly Father, who is all good and all loving, so would certainly hear our pleas. He also said that whatever we asked in His name we would receive, so He certainly expected us to have desires. Not to have any desires is a very Buddhist philosophy where detachment is the ideal, but Jesus didn't expect that of us - He responded to people's needs and desires.

Sometimes this attitude of 'oh how sinful and unworthy I am' is a good thing because it reminds us of God's kindness and mercy, but it can be carried to the extreme as well (as anything in life can be). When I was confessing to a priest once, I went on and on about my unworthiness and sinfulness and he stopped me in mid-stride and said that my words sounded very Protestant to him, because they focused more on my sins than on God's goodness. It pulled me up short. We have every right as God's sons and daughters to hope for kindness and mercy, not only from Him, but also from others who believe in Him and want to follow the commandments of Jesus. The attitude that we are allowed to 'abuse' each other because we somehow deserve it, and God is using this to test us and improve our soul is... well, my first thoughts are of harsh words, but let's just say, it's utter nonsense. Jesus was kindness personified.

As for convincing ourselves that our desires are God's, well, we will never know for sure in this life what God's will is, we can only attempt to do so by a variety of means, and one of these is our 'affinities'. According to St Ignatius, God uses our affinities to guide us through His Holy Spirit. Do we make mistakes? Of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to correct ourselves. And perhaps even what appears to be a mistake, isn't, if you get what I mean. I have made many mistakes in my discernment - but have I really? Maybe God has used each one of those experiences to teach me something valuable about myself and others, so they aren't really mistakes. They certainly seemed like a response to God's will at the time. Like the men who were given the talents - the man who did nothing with his was chastised - so at least we have to get out there and try!

Do we sometimes make the wrong judgment about communities who don't respond? Perhaps - but that could also be because when one receives no communication, one is apt to make up reasons or justifications for this which might not be correct. No communication leads to miscommunication. The whole point of this thread, as I am the one who started it, was not to bad-mouth communities, but to offer support and encouragement to those who have made effort after effort to communicate but have had no response. It can get disheartening and cause one to doubt oneself, so it seemed like a positive thing.

Trying to follow God's will does not mean to do nothing, ever, and just allow things to happen - that is more a philosophy of karma than Christianity! If a baby falls overboard into the water and the parents look at it and shrug, "Oh well, must be God's will." without attempting to save the baby - isn't that ridiculous? I know that is an absurdity - but the point is that we are given FREE WILL so that we can discover God's will for ourselves, and sometimes He allows unpleasant things to help us grow stronger in love and faith, but that doesn't excuse those whose act of uncharity does the testing, does it? When Pilate crucified Jesus, he didn't want to, and it was ordained that Jesus die on the Cross so was he responsible or was it God's will? Well, he still did commit the act and even though Jesus said that those who handed him over were more responsible, he didn't say that Pilate wasn't responsible at all. So, although comparisons are odious, even if God is testing one's vocation by letting communities fail to respond in a timely manner - for whatever reason - does that mean that being uncharitable or rude is acceptable behaviour?

BUT - and this is really important, we don't know all the reasons why a community fails to respond, so we must continue to be charitable in our frustrations.... and focus not on 'how bad' a community is, but how good some of them can be!! We have read here how wonderful some communities are is responding and we see that some only respond to those they are interested in, and we are able to make comments about that. to help each other deal with the pain and frustration of rejection or indifference (perceived or real).

Anyway, I don't think that trying to accept God's will means we have to justify apparently discourteous behaviour, nor does it mean we feel a sense of entitlement and are demanding something of God. I see an amazing amount of patience in the discerners here and can also see the efforts to accept God's will despite obstacles and challenges that we all face. It isn't easy being a discerner and I'm sure many of us have felt like giving up at times, but we persevere and trust simply because we do want to answer His call and do His will. I give us all kudos here - I can't see how God could fail to be pleased simply with the loving and open hearts and sincerity of the discerners on this forum.... it isn't our accomplishments that He treasures, but our efforts.

[ACS67]

Nunsense,
It's interesting that you mention "Buddhism" and "karma" in your response to my post because I have learned that a few ex-buddhist have converted and found a home in the Orthodox Church (and possibly Eastern Rite Catholicism, although I have not heard/read that). I guess much of Eastern theology, the Desert Fathers, etc, appeals to the those inclined to buddhist philosophy. The bit about desires can be found in St. John Climacus' "The Ladder of Divine Ascent." I highly recommend that book for anyone considering the monastic life (minus the part where a monk gets beat to death and accepts his beatings out of obedience! YIKES )

As to the rest, as you said, we will just have to agree to disagree as we see things from 2 very different perspectives. But, to use an annoying colloquialism,..."it's all good"

[Antigonos]

If, when I send an email to Amazon customer support, I get an almost immediate automated acknowledgment of receipt of my email, that says that within a certain time I should get a full reply, I don't see why communities which communicate by email, or have websites with an email address for information on vocations can't do the same thing. It simply shows that your initial approach has been noted, which is polite and helpful. It doesn't require instant attention from a member of the community, as it is an automated response. Unless, of course, they don't want vocations, in which case their automated reply can say that at present they are not accepting applicants.

IMHO, of course.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Antigonos

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Antigonos' timestamp='1306206719' post='2245225']
If, when I send an email to Amazon customer support, I get an almost immediate automated acknowledgment of receipt of my email, that says that within a certain time I should get a full reply, I don't see why communities which communicate by email, or have websites with an email address for information on vocations can't do the same thing. It simply shows that your initial approach has been noted, which is polite and helpful. It doesn't require instant attention from a member of the community, as it is an automated response. Unless, of course, they don't want vocations, in which case their automated reply can say that at present they are not accepting applicants.

IMHO, of course.
[/quote]


This is a very good point. There are many ways to deal with the problem of too many emails, and an automated response is just one of them. But I do note that even in those communities that have email, they often do not have the expertise (or the time to develop it) to know how to handle the technology once they have it! I think the active communities probably handle the technology better than the contemplative ones, because it is often a part of their daily work, especially if they are teaching or doing other things in the world that involve technology. It isn't a problem that can be solved instantaneously but it is certainly one that should be considered as important if the community intends to use email as a major form of communication.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1306201754' post='2245182']
Nunsense,
It's interesting that you mention "Buddhism" and "karma" in your response to my post because I have learned that a few ex-buddhist have converted and found a home in the Orthodox Church (and possibly Eastern Rite Catholicism, although I have not heard/read that). I guess much of Eastern theology, the Desert Fathers, etc, appeals to the those inclined to buddhist philosophy. The bit about desires can be found in St. John Climacus' "The Ladder of Divine Ascent." I highly recommend that book for anyone considering the monastic life (minus the part where a monk gets beat to death and accepts his beatings out of obedience! YIKES )

As to the rest, as you said, we will just have to agree to disagree as we see things from 2 very different perspectives. But, to use an annoying colloquialism,..."it's all good"
[/quote]

Yes, we definitely have to agree to disagree that a monk accepting a beating unto death under obedience is a holy thing. In today's monastic life, this form of obedience would be considered abuse, and no monastic is required by canon law to do that which is illegal, immoral or sinful, even under the vow of obedience. The Visitator should have been contacted about this, but I assume that in those days, there were no such persons!

As for Buddhism, yes, I was a Buddhist before I converted to Catholicism and was even a meditation teacher for many years, travelling around the world, giving lectures and teaching meditation techniques. Although there is much beauty in Buddhism, it lacks a 'personal God', and this is a BIG difference. Our God became human to demonstrate to us His love for us - He is not simply an experience of detached compassion. He has suffered with us and knows our pains and sorrows in a very personal way. Trying to become 'one with God' is futile without a personal relationship with Jesus.

I do love much about the Eastern Church, and have read the works of the desert Fathers and Mothers when I was a hermit in the States. And I have also read 'The Ladder of Divine Ascent' (there isn't much I haven't read, although I love being surprised with something new). I especially appreciate the concept of hesychastic prayer (prayer of the heart) and the asceticism is certainly attractive in many ways (I personally live a very ascetic life by necessity) but I also believe that one does not achieve union with God through any particular acts of self-abnegation or through contemplation on God's pure light alone, but through the mercy of God.

I fear for those who try to incorporate Buddhist philosophy into Christianity too far because the danger is that one might lose focus on Jesus. Thomas Merton was a case in point who appeared to be wandering off course at the time of his death in his investigation into Eastern religions. Yes, the Eastern religions and philosophies certainly have something to offer us, but they are not the Truth and to try to 'marry' Christianity with them is an error. Jesus needs to be the beginning, the middle and the end of all our worship and adoration because it is only through Him that we are saved. I have found some techniques of meditation to be helpful in my prayer life, but only because they have been purified through my devotion to Jesus and focus on Him as the source of all good.

As usual, I am too long winded - but I find it difficult to try to say what I mean in a few words (a skill I have yet to learn).


I realize that this is not the Debate Table so I will stop there. This thread is supposed to be about communication with religious communities!

[ACS67]

[quote]As usual, I am too long winded - but I find it difficult to try to say what I mean in a few words (a skill I have yet to learn).
[/quote]

It's the sin of pride...we all have it... "Where words are many, sin is not wanting..." (Proverbs 10:19)

[AccountDeleted]

I simply have no response to such an uncharitable post unles I become uncharitable myself.

Edited May 24, 2011 by nunsense

[Lisa]

Hi guys, we've discussed the issue of communities not responding promptly. I think the purpose of this thread at the beginning was to list communities that were good at answering discerners' questions. Maybe it's not such a good idea to be exchanging words that are clearly meant to cut to the heart, especially with a

Prayers for all of you as you contact your respective communities; may your search be fruitful and lead you only to the place where God is calling you. As in all things, above all else, may God's will be done.

[ACS67]

I apologize nunsense. I was just winking because we do all have pride. I especially do. I apologize though. I didn't know you would take it as being uncharitable. Forgive me.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1306238185' post='2245328']
Hi guys, we've discussed the issue of communities not responding promptly. I think the purpose of this thread at the beginning was to list communities that were good at answering discerners' questions. Maybe it's not such a good idea to be exchanging words that are clearly meant to cut to the heart, especially with a

Prayers for all of you as you contact your respective communities; may your search be fruitful and lead you only to the place where God is calling you. As in all things, above all else, may God's will be done.
[/quote]

Thanks Lisa - I think you got us back on track. That being the case...

one of the things that really made me feel good was a kind rejection. The Prioress of Armstrong, BC Carmel phoned me to let me know that they didn't want to accept any more mature vocations (this was a couple of years ago) because they were nearly full already and could afford to wait for younger ones. She was kind and gentle and made me feel that I totally agreed with her, even if it meant that I wasn't acceptable to them. And her reply was prompt as well as kind, so I didn't have to wait around for ages wondering if I would ever get a response. Once I knew, I could just get on with things, so I really appreciate the way she handled my enquiry.

Another really sweet rejection was one from the San Diego Carmel. They wrote to tell me that they couldn't take me, but it was a sincere and sweet letter that let me down gently. A couple of years later, I had to contact them about something else, and they were completely helpful and supportive - beyond what I could have expected!

The Seattle Washington Carmelites were also very prompt, and suggested I come for a visit, but by that time I had already decided on Wolverhampton, but I would like to say that they were efficient and friendly.

The Carmel in Littleton Springs (I think that's the name) - a 1990s Carmel in Colorado, phoned me to discuss their community, and at that time I had no idea of the differences between the 1990s and 1991s and I think she scared me a little by telling me all their rules and austerities, so I didn't go to visit, but the Prioress was very good and wanted me to know everything before making a decision. Today I would really understand because they are a 1990s, but back then.... funny how things turn out.

In Australia - only two communities repsonded to my enquiry (out of 12) and one said no - quite abuptly, but the other one asked for me to send more info about myself, even though I was over their usual age limit. I thought that was sweet, and a plus for the Perth Carmel.

In the very beginning of my discernment I contacted Tyburn in London and they were very prompt in responding quite positively, but I decided to go Carmelite instead.

Of the Benedictines that I have contacted recently, all have responded - I did have to phone Oulton to find out why the delay in responding, but understood completely when I spoke with the Abbess - who was fantastic and when I asked her if she remembered me from a phone call two years ago (before I entered Kirk Edge), she said "I know exactly who you are!" and that made me feel very good.

As I think of more, I will post them. I sent enquiries to over 60 Carmels when I first started and a several other orders as well, so I just need to remember who replied and how!!

[krissylou]

I haven't contacted cloisters about vocations -- but I have occasionally with prayer requests. (I sometimes call this "activating nuns." Please don't tell them I say this as they may or may not be amused. )

I have found that the Jamaica Plain Poor Clares almost always respond within the day and the Roxbury (Boston) Carmelites do within the next few days. It's generally just a couple sentences, but that's plenty to let me know they got it and are keeping it in mind and heart.

[Yaatee]

What a resource you all are to discerners on VS! You can give valuable info on observances and customs, and the speed of response, although the latter will change as the staffing of the posts changes in these communities. Still...!

[SevenSwans]

I have had excellent responses from all the communities I have contacted, even surprisingly, the Sisters of Bethlehem in Livingston Manor. The preferred method of communication in their case is via post. However, they respond very quickly to letters in my experience. And when I found myself obliged to phone, I left a voicemail and received a return call the very same day.

[Sarah147]

I don't get why the Pauline and Alma Sisters have yet to respond. I waited two weeks, and sent a follow-up to the Pauline Sisters asking if they got the email. No reply.

I'm wondering if anyone here knows if these two Orders are just busy?

But most important is the Order I'm discerning... but I'll wait until I know some dates.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1306357971' post='2245938']
I don't get why the Pauline and Alma Sisters have yet to respond. I waited two weeks, and sent a follow-up to the Pauline Sisters asking if they got the email. No reply.

I'm wondering if anyone here knows if these two Orders are just busy?

But most important is the Order I'm discerning... but I'll wait until I know some dates.
[/quote]

Two weeks isn't too long to wait. I'd give them another two weeks before calling.