Interesting Article By Mark Shea

[Luigi]

Ed - he told ONE sinner to go forth and sin no more (at least, as narrated in the Gospels). He also told us to forgive our brothers seventy times seventy times. So He couldn't have figured we'd actually be ABLE to go forth and sin no more.

[Archaeology cat]

I get what Mark Shea is saying. I think there's a fine line with correcting and such and becoming prideful about it. He's right that there is no perfect parish because we are imperfect people. Yes, we want everyone to be reverent, but we can't see their hearts. Some of the things Shea was mentioning, like Communion on the hand or the tongue, are things the Church allows. We may prefer one or the other, we may even think one is more objectively reverent than the other, but it doesn't mean the person doing it the other way isn't reverent so we shouldn't judge them as such. Neither should we look around and try to see what abuses are going on, because that isn't conducive to our worshipping God and can lead to pride (in my opinion, from my experience). Does this mean we should ignore blatant abuses? No, but we need to make sure it's an actual abuse for one, and also address it charitably.

Sometimes it's simply out of ignorance. For example, the missal says to bow during the Creed, but few people do so. Well, very few people actually read the Creed from the missal as they have it memorised. I didn't know about bowing during the Creed until I happened to see it, but I'd been Catholic for years before I knew that. Now when we say the Creed it can be tempting to look to see if others are bowing, but that wouldn't be a good thing to do. It doesn't make me better than anyone that I'm bowing, it just means that I finally saw what the rubrics said and therefore followed it. If someone asks me about it, I'll tell them, but I'm not going to go up to the other parishioners and say "you should bow!" I struggle with pride enough - I don't need to add to that.

So all that is to say that I understand how this article could rub the wrong way. I don't think he's saying we should just ignore blatant abuses, but we also shouldn't be paying that much attention to what anyone else is doing since our focus should be on Jesus.

[Ice_nine]

Humility is a tricky thing; something you can never be fully content with. No one can say "I think I've gotten to a point where my pride is well in my control" because through that door pride creeps through. Being neurotic just adds to the fun!

But I swear people would be surprised how much a little kindness can go. Instead of sneering at people who receive communion in the hand, why not simply explain to them why you feel receiving on the tongue is more reverent? If your love for the Eucharist is your real motivation then perhaps the person will see that with an appreciation and the knew knowledge might cause him or her to adjust themselves accordingly. Or maybe they'll listen but just politely disagree at which point you'll just need to hope in a bit of suffering that the other person's reverence will grow.

I used to have pretty bad social anxiety, and although it's gotten better it's somewhat exhausting to know how judgmental some people can be, and it can feel like people are scrutinizing your every move and using their own litmus tests to determine how reverent you are. And I would like to imagine that church is a place where this thing is less common, but it's where I feared it happening the most. For example, after "coming home" after a few miserable years' hiatus sometimes I would get nervous and not genuflect before entering the pew at Mass because I'd be having a minor panic-attack and thinking that people were looking at me with diligent scrutiny. And sometimes this can be talked out of by saying "chances are no one is looking at you and judging your sincerity or reverence it's probably just you being over-analytical and paranoid" but I'd go to forums and see other Catholics nit-picking the behaviors of people that they didn't even know eek!

I know this is only one perspective out of many, but it's just something to think about and it makes me realize how limited I am in determining someone else's motives. Maybe the person who receives in the hand really is just irreverent and doesn't even believe in the Real Presence, or maybe said person is ignorant or doesn't have a strong a grasp on it, or maybe the person is reverent but something is inhibiting onlookers from seeing that , and maybe the person is just so awestruck at Christ's mercy and love that his or her head goes blank and forgets to make the right motions, but the thing is we don't know and many times we [i]can't[/i] know. We can maintain our positions and opinions, especially in dealing with sin but also among the more err "optional" things, we just can't sneer in disgust when other people don't get it as "right" as we do.

Not to mention it's counterproductive.

[Archaeology cat]

Well said, Ice_nine!

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1305951847' post='2244097']
I will have to remember this whenever I get caught up in all my self righteous worry about others sins, such as abortion and murders, rape and incest and the reverence of the liturgy. Perhaps it would be better for one just to close their eyes and sing kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya. It seems much easier for certain.

I know Jesus forgave sinners, but he also told them to go forth and sin no more.

ed
[/quote]


correcting someone is not wrong. it has been said in this thread more than once. what has also been said to to always forgive those who sin and NOT judge those who are sinning. i really don't understand what you find so hard to understand about this? you seem to either have a problem with this concept or have a problem understanding it.

don't take offense to this as it was not meant as offensive.

[tinytherese]

We also have to keep in mind that words are more easily misinterpreted when we read them than if we were to have a face to face conversation with them.

I think that the problem may be in how he phrased his article. I thought that he was being snarky about those of us who are more traditional Catholics. Then I realized as I read the whole article that that wasn't really what he was getting at. Sometimes you just have to stick it out and be open to what the author is saying. I understand however that this can be hard to be objective about the rest of what you are reading when the beginning comes off bad to you personally.