Interesting Article By Mark Shea

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1305661483' post='2242920']I don't know if I'm reading this right, but it seems to me that he's slamming traditionalist-minded Catholics...[/quote]Respectfully disagreed, though I admit I have no sympathy for radtrads. To me the writer does seem to have contempt for the extremes in Catholicism, but not contempt to traditional Catholicism. Though if I agree with the ranting writer, in some cases yes and others no.

The best advise to people caught up in such is simple, "[i][b]relax[/b][/i]". Religion is for man, "god" supposedly has no need for religion, let your faith benefit you. Not bring you down.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Ash Wednesday]

From the tone of his article, I interpreted it to be less a judgment on traditionalist Catholicism in general, and more out of frustration with some of the more traditional readers he converses with in particular.



From what I recall he and I exchanged some pretty amusing emails a while back lamenting the overwhelming heterodoxy and ridiculous liberalism that has ran rampant in the Seattle Archdiocese.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[Lil Red]

perusing the comments:

[quote]Brandy M. Miller 05/17/2011 4:44 am
I think you make a very valid point. It’s easy to convince ourselves that we are Real (TM) Catholics and everyone else is not. There was a time in my life when I was pro-choice. It’s easy to forget that and want to rattle the teeth of anyone who calls themselves Catholic and pro-choice in the same breath. At that time, I honestly didn’t see the contradiction between calling myself Catholic and being pro-choice, and I have to remember that neither do they. There was a time in my life when I found the Church’s refusal to admit women to the priesthood some kind of proof that we were second class citizens. Now I know better, but it’s easy to get impatient with those who are still stuck in that point of view and want to exclude them from wearing the Real (TM) Catholic title. We all have sins, and I have more than my fair share, that we struggle to overcome. We are all on different points in our journey. Rather than getting impatient or looking down on those who aren’t where we are, it’s important to have compassion on them and try to steer them gently in the right direction just as God has done to me along the way.[/quote]

[quote]Mike 05/17/2011 8:46 am
Mark – This was Fantastic! Thank you! I’m one of your silent readers, never having felt the need to comment on your articles that set people aflame with political passions. You are my brother in Christ, who in your own style, just reiterated and reinforced the same message CS Lewis expounded years ago in Mere Christianity, the Screwtape Letters, and others. You have warmed my heart with your article, today. As a revert, I went through the phase of being angry that you describe, and by the Grace of God came to the conclusion you have just articulated (albeit over a painful 10 year period); it is the only position that I can reconcile with our faith.

To those who may suggest or infer that Mark is somehow letting sinners off the hook, read his words again. We’re all sinners; we’re all bad Catholics. That’s why we keep coming back again and again to the fountain of Mercy. Christ commanded us to be perfect like our Heavenly Father is perfect; it is only He who can ultimately make us Perfect. So when you discover your brother lacking in the Faith (or lacking Faith altogether) expound to him all the more, charitably preaching the Gospel (using words if necessary), all the while trusting in the mystery that is Divine Mercy.

Thank you Mark[/quote]

[quote]BigIrish 05/17/2011 9:04 am
Yes but is it not a disservice to say “We’re all a bunch of slobs and losers and incorrigibly average people”. The Church welcomes everyone, but also has Saints and martyrs.

I’m not saying we don’t all sin, but come on… I’m not going to write off the things God has done for me in my life in the past. I’m neither a slob nor a loser; I work hard professionally, personally and spiritually because I’m called to follow Jesus and honour Him by my very life.

I’m not happy saying I’m a bad Catholic because I realise how much I need God. Surely by recognising how much you truly need God, you become a better Catholic than you were.[/quote]

[quote]Andy 05/17/2011 9:44 am
[i]Me: I receive standing and on the tongue and have not the slightest idea or concern what my neighbor does. They are brother and sister Catholics, and whatever they do is between them and God.[/i]

This is exactly the mentality to have. Heck, years ago, I found myself overly concerned that I was the only person bowing during the words of Incarnation during the Creed. After I while I came to my senses and realized I’m not the Catholic Police. Now, I close my eyes when I bow, and in my mind everyone else bows, too.[/quote]

[quote]FamilyMan 05/17/2011 1:09 pm
I have to recognize myself in here often.

The missal you are holding during Mass says to bow…so why don’t you?

Why does half the congregation, and most of the men, refuse to sing? Good, bad or ridiculous songs…aren’t we supposed to sing? If not, why don’t we avoid the whole (usually) lame effort?

My kids and I knelt during Mass at the “right times” while visiting a parish near my parents home in a “liberal diocese”…and had a local parishioner come up and thank us for doing the right thing–no one else knelt. Why?

For those of us who like rules, Mass can be confusing. One parish holds hands, another doesn’t. 10 seconds for the shaking of your neighbors hands or 5 minutes of ample handshakes, strolling about the church and hugs-aplenty.

One woman kept snatching at my hand because I wouldn’t hold hers and lift them up…

I listen to Brother Knights offer to pitch in funds for the KOC’s pro-life ultrasound initiative, and in the next breath hear them be glad that Virginia has executed another prisoner “who deserved it”.

I love baby noises during Mass…and know that many don’t.

Where is the line between keeping my eyes on my own paper and trying to help my fellow man do the right thing? Is the real answer to close my eyes and tend to my own knitting?

I have my own problems, and I should strive to let you have yours. Besides with summer attire breaking out, closing my eyes is often the only solution I have left.[/quote]

[quote]Tim Trainor 05/17/2011 1:15 pm
Thank you, Mark, for speaking a truth that I have to hear repeatedly. I winced with self-recognition more than once while reading your post. I am slowly (VERY slowly) beginning to learn that every time I’m tempted to look down on the (in my proud opinion) less-than-orthodox Catholic, it’s often because I have un-repented sin on my own soul and lashing out at others diverts my attention from my own need for repentance. Spiritual pride seems to be so much more dangerous than even the sins of the flesh, because it can be self-justifying and spiritually blinding. Thanks again, Mark, for a wonderful reflection.[/quote]

[quote]Mark P. Shea 05/17/2011 1:57 pm
Gabriel: Calling the bulk of your fellow Catholics “clapping fornicators”, insulting the mass of hard-working and dedicated priests as “turning their back on God”, and priding oneself on one’s own “humble awe” is just the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector played out again as farce instead of tragedy. Don’t humbug me with the Catcher in the Rye schtick. I have no problem with correcting perceived problems. I argue with Catholics who I think are wrong about this and that every day. But assuming the pseudo-episcopal authority to declare who is and is not a “real” Catholic is bogus. Every Catholic is a material heretic somehow or other. Our task is to help each other, not read each other out of the Church.[/quote]

[quote]BigIrish 05/17/2011 2:29 pm
Taking constructive criticism, whether you feel it is deserved or not isn’t something to be avoided either Mr Shea.

But then, we are ALL bad Catholics and slobs or what-have-you.

You see? If you don’t clarify whatever it is that you mean by posting stuff online, and talk in broad terms, people can misinterpret it and think you’re a smug jerk.

Now was what I wrote above serious or an attempt at humour? We aim for perfection because God is perfection. I don’t like to spend time thinking how mediocre I am when I could be thinking of things I need to work on. Your article came off a bit insulting whereas I think you could have ended on a more constructive note.[/quote]

[quote]jkm 05/17/2011 3:38 pm
Thank you for confronting what this revert has found most troubling since her return–this seeming need to define who is Really Catholic by ever smaller and more elite and self-congratulatory criteria, wherever we fall on the spectrum that has become increasingly pegged to the political. I would call it less Protestantism than neoGnosticism (and I should know, have been in my time away both materially and formally heretical): this assurance that we alone are possessed of the true knowledge, marked by a pride that tilts over into violence of thought and speech if not of action.

Recognition of this evil in ourselves is the first step toward removing the poison that keeps us from the unity Christ gave Himself to give us; thank you for holding up the two-sided mirror.

And not least for doing so while using my favorite word, twaddle. Finally, would it be trivializing the power of your piece to request that someone please, please name a rock band The Clapping Fornicators?[/quote]

just some comments i thought were interesting.

[Maria]

The way I read it was that it wasn't
- bashing trads or anyone else as such,
- saying that we shouldn't try to be perfect,
- etc.,
but rather saying that we shouldn't have contempt for any of our fellow Christians, no matter how wrong they are. We're all sinners, all in need of God's grace, all fallen, and contempt reveals unjustifiable pride on our part, besides making things worse, not better. There are other ways of dealing with problems, depending on your position with respect to the problem, etc.

[sixpence]

I do not think this guy is trying to slam trad Catholics AT ALL. I think he is trying to slam people who go around thinking about how much better they are than their fellow servants and how much Better the Church would be if They were in charge and everything was done according to Their idea of how it should be done.

He is promoting the idea that each one of us is an imperfect mess, and that we all need to help each other to become better Christians... rather than sneering at those who are making mistakes and leaving them in the dust.

[vee]

Im not going to pretned I even read the whole thing because I didnt. His use of vocabulary for one and the tone grated on my nerves right from " liturgical fussbudgetry." I read the first and last paragraphs. Two cents on "Why should I tell any other Catholic they aren't welcome?" Well if they are in mortal sin due to a situation like living with someone out of wedlock, or in an invalid marriage then someone better be telling those people to not receive the Eucharist until they have gone to Confession and changed their life!! One of the works of mercy is to admonish sinners and we are all to do that.



edited due to typos

Edited May 18, 2011 by vee8

[BG45]

[quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1305668393' post='2242983']
I do not think this guy is trying to slam trad Catholics AT ALL. I think he is trying to slam people who go around thinking about how much better they are than their fellow servants and how much Better the Church would be if They were in charge and everything was done according to Their idea of how it should be done.

He is promoting the idea that each one of us is an imperfect mess, and that we all need to help each other to become better Christians... rather than sneering at those who are making mistakes and leaving them in the dust.
[/quote]

This. For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. One of the comments Red posted from the original article was talking about how at one point a person had no problem calling themselves Catholic and pro-choice for example, and now knows better. I can empathize with that, because I wasn't pro-life until I was on my way to Catholicism; the article's about how we're not perfect (though I do love sixpence's "imperfect mess" comment).

I'm somehow unsurprised, yet still hurt, that an article on loving one another has people giving it one star.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1305731952' post='2243216']
Im not going to pretned I even read the whole thing because I didnt. His use of vocabulary for one and the tone grated on my nerves right from " liturgical fussbudgetry." I read the first and last paragraphs. Two cents on "Why should I tell any other Catholic they aren't welcome?" Well if they are in mortal sin due to a situation like living with someone out of wedlock, or in an invalid marriage then someone better be telling those people to not receive the Eucharist until they have gone to Confession and changed their life!! One of the works of mercy is to admonish sinners and we are all to do that.



edited due to typos
[/quote]

I didn't interpret that to be about people specifically coming up for communion, rather that it isn't his place and authority to kick people out of the Church.

The more I read the article and mull it over, the more I personally agree with it, though I can understand why it rubs people the wrong way or can be misunderstood or a bit confusing. I don't think he's telling people to get all lovey dovey and wishy washy, but he has some good points. People need to check themselves (and this includes me.) Some of the most well-meaning orthodox Catholics can also be some of the most rude, humorless, stuck up, elitist, judgmental and self-righteous people I've ever known. Doing and saying all the right things, but with a lot of contempt for others and little joy and love. (makes me think of 1 Corinthians 13:1)

I think though we get frustrated with a lot that goes on in the Church and there is much to be done and fought for, it's also important to remember to mind the planks in our own eyes as well.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Ash Wednesday

[Ed Normile]

Now my two cents worth, and mind you, it will be worth each penny!

First off I too think its a slam against those who would dare to say that something is not right, or trad catholics or whatever you may call them. its almost impossible to be a trad catholic these days, even the latin mass has changed over time. I do not know how he , or anyone can judge how reverent one is in their worship, unless they are doing sometrhing outrageous. I wonder if the author agreed with Jesus attack on the money chagners, that was an accepted practise that was eased in to practise too.

Secondly, have any of you ever heard of any catholic telling another they are not welcome at a particular church? I only had this happen once in my entire life, I wrote a letter to a priests church, addressed to him personally, asking why he as the head priest would say during the Eucharistic prayer " God, our Father/mother " , clearly an outrage, and he never replied , but his secretary, a mean spirited woman replied in a two page hate filled letter ending it with " If you do not like our liturgy then you are welcome to go find a church that fulfills your needs" . It also contained gems such as " Why do you believe that God is a man " and " what have you in your little judgemental mind got against women having a deeper role in the church hierarchy".

I think it is not only proper, but its prudent to point out errors in a loving way. Now to say anything such as , you are going to hell for standing there mocking the priest and Jesus using the orans position, or however the exact words the author used in his rant were originally penned, would be as abusive as his article seemed to me. It may be true that some people are more acute in their presentation, but do they not too bask in the endless pool of Jesus Divine Mercy? Simply stating that the GIRM, or the Pope said this is not reverent, or this is not proper form may be all the education that certain people need to change, sometimes ignorance is bliss, and at other times its an embarrassment.

Yes the piece was thought provoking, although it seemed as mean and judgemental as he painted his original reader, and how he seems to paint any who would have an opposing view. It seems to me he is asking the age old question, why can't we just get along? That attitude seems to be what has caused much of the error that is prevelant in many areas these days.

ed

[havok579257]

pointing out errors is one things but the problem is people don't point out errors in a christian way. they insult, ridecule(sp?), are judgemental of those they are correcting. just the stuff that happens on these boards is proof of that. most of the time when someone is correcting them they are insulting them at the same time or telling them they are going against church teaching in a hurtful way when the person may not even know what church teaching is. i know when i first came on these boards i had just made my way back to the church after being away from it since first communion. i was nearly clueless about church teaching. when i would argue things that I thought were church teaching not only was I corrected but it was done so in an unchristian way. not good for someone who had no clue about chruch teaching except for the basics but was trying to learn more about his faith.

just look at the debates we have on here about communion on the hand or on the mouth. people are always telling people who receive on the hand they are not reverent enough towards our Lord. that if you receive on the hand you can NOT be as revent as someone who receives on the tounge.

let's not even get into the debates on phatmass that deal with the litergy post vatican II and pre vatican II. insults galore.


i think the article is saying that correcting someone if they are in error is the christian thing to do(the article actually says this), although most of the time when a catholic is correcting someone they are not being christian about it. they are insulting, hurtful, judgemental, and so forth. also we as catholics judge each other to harshly when it comes to things our opinions differ on but is not against church teaching such as communion on the hand or tounge, pre vatican II mass and post vatican II mass, holding hands during our father, and so forth.


i think this is what the article is trying to address.

[Chamomile]

I read most of the article. Good points and bad points. I don't think I can judge whether the good outweighs the bad or vice-versa. However....


[quote name='Mark Shea' timestamp='1305627737' post='2242724']
...and will even accept as Christian (in some sense) anybody who names the Name. This includes Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other people who are very far out at the end of the bell curve theologically. Doesn't mean I have to think they are good Christians either theologically, morally, or intellectually.
[/quote]


This doesn't speak well for the author's understanding of the Faith and could lead many to error, I think. This seems to me to be a pretty major concession that he's made to get a point across - a concession he didn't have to make since the basics of "love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you" are contained succinctly within the Gospel and Tradition.

[Debra Little]

My Dear Brother in Christ,

How amazing and helpful this article is to me. I'm going to copy it so I can always have it and read again and again.
I'm sure this article was written just for me, someone who needs to humble her pride so much. All I can say is,
"God be merciful to me, a sinner!"

When I first came into the Church this is the kind of people I associate with and was told by them what was right
and what was wrong with the Church. Because of this I became just like them and became very bitter and judge-\
mental and still fight this tendency every time I go to Mass or go into the Church at all. "My dearest Lord Jesus,
forgive me for my pride and lack of love. Fill me with your humility and love."

When I see some of the things that happen my heart is in anguish. At one point, I left the Church for seven years because I
couldn't take it anymore. My faith in God and in the Church had suffered to a huge degree. I came back to the Church and
now I pray for Our Holy Mother Church. I tell the anguish of my heart to God, who is really the only One who can do anything
about it anyway.

The prayer of St. Therese was "Lord, let me be love in the heart of my mother the Church." I aspire more to this now than
I do to my former thinking. But, I will acknowledge the truth. I am not afraid to tell all my brother and sisters that I am one
of the snobs who tend to look down on "people who don't it rigiht." Jesus loves me and accepts me as I am and where
I am and because of Him I am a forgiven sinner.

Please pray for your sister who so much needs and wants to learn humility and the love of her Lord.

Thank you M Kolbe for speaking straight to my heart. God has used you!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1305938157' post='2244016']
My Dear Brother in Christ,

How amazing and helpful this article is to me. I'm going to copy it so I can always have it and read again and again.
I'm sure this article was written just for me, someone who needs to humble her pride so much. All I can say is,
"God be merciful to me, a sinner!"

When I first came into the Church this is the kind of people I associate with and was told by them what was right
and what was wrong with the Church. Because of this I became just like them and became very bitter and judge-\
mental and still fight this tendency every time I go to Mass or go into the Church at all. "My dearest Lord Jesus,
forgive me for my pride and lack of love. Fill me with your humility and love."

When I see some of the things that happen my heart is in anguish. At one point, I left the Church for seven years because I
couldn't take it anymore. My faith in God and in the Church had suffered to a huge degree. I came back to the Church and
now I pray for Our Holy Mother Church. I tell the anguish of my heart to God, who is really the only One who can do anything
about it anyway.

The prayer of St. Therese was "Lord, let me be love in the heart of my mother the Church." I aspire more to this now than
I do to my former thinking. But, I will acknowledge the truth. I am not afraid to tell all my brother and sisters that I am one
of the snobs who tend to look down on "people who don't it rigiht." Jesus loves me and accepts me as I am and where
I am and because of Him I am a forgiven sinner.

Please pray for your sister who so much needs and wants to learn humility and the love of her Lord.

Thank you M Kolbe for speaking straight to my heart. God has used you!
[/quote]


Debra - I had similar feelings to you when I read the article and I saw much about myself in what Mark Shea wrote. I hope that I have grown and matured over the years now, but it was nice to read his point of view. I can see that we don't all read the article through the same eyes, but for me it was very inspiring.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mark, as always, hits the nail on the head. Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.
" Jesus have mercy on me, a sinner." Say that enough times and you won't have time to worry about everyone elses sins.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1305950442' post='2244092']
Mark, as always, hits the nail on the head. Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.
" Jesus have mercy on me, a sinner." Say that enough times and you won't have time to worry about everyone elses sins.
[/quote]

I will have to remember this whenever I get caught up in all my self righteous worry about others sins, such as abortion and murders, rape and incest and the reverence of the liturgy. Perhaps it would be better for one just to close their eyes and sing kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya. It seems much easier for certain.

I know Jesus forgave sinners, but he also told them to go forth and sin no more.

ed