Winchester Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1305593841' post='2242594'] I would certainly resist/avoid arrest if i had reason to believe i was being set up to take the fall for some crime, ala Harrison Ford in The Fugitive. [/quote] Why didn't you pick the one with Wesley Snipes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Cops do not tell you what you are being arrested for until after you are subdued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305594439' post='2242598'] Cops do not tell you what you are being arrested for until after you are subdued. [/quote] I've seen people arrested. But if someone begins 'subduing' a free man before he's informed of why, he certainly is within his rights to resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun Obviously, he should have been killed because you are supposed to submit to the police no matter the law or your actual rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305597742' post='2242615'] [url="http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/16/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun"]http://www.foxbusine...ly-carrying-gun[/url] Obviously, he should have been killed because you are supposed to submit to the police no matter the law or your actual rights. [/quote] he eventually did submit, but you're right, he totally should have fought back, then he definitely would have died, good call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305597946' post='2242616'] he eventually did submit, but you're right, he totally should have fought back, then he definitely would have died, good call [/quote] I didn't say he should have "fought" back, did I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305564710' post='2242331'] well if I get the opportunity to be the sacrifice sufficient for the whole world. I won .t resist [/quote] gosh, didn't know the apostles did that also. i mentioned them also. what about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [img]http://tcor.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/balloon_toss.jpg?w=460[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305598083' post='2242618'] I didn't say he should have "fought" back, did I? [/quote] no you didn't apologies for being presumptuous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305600359' post='2242634'] no you didn't apologies for being presumptuous [/quote] Now I feel bad for my tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 To be honest, I'm having difficulty coming up with a reason the police would show up to try to arrest me. I suppose it could be a case of mistaken identity. My fingerprints are on file with the FBI because I'm a teacher. So, if I ever touch something that's involved in a crime, they might get a hit when they run it through the computer. But in most cases, I'd imagine they'd merely question me, not flat out arrest me. Especially if there was nothing else linking me to the incident. But I think that if I were innocent, I'd be unlikely to see this coming. It would be a case of 'there's someone here to see you,' and after saying 'oh' I'd go see them and then they'd arrest me and I'd be very confused. I mean, I keep multiple swords in the trunk of my car, but I don't really see me having the opportunity to go fetch them if the police show up unannounced. And why would I want to? Seriously, why does acting like a jack...um...douche seem like a good idea? I might flee the house/city/state/country if I had enough warning, but that kind of warning comes with guilt/accessory. If I were truly innocent, I wouldn't see it coming. Oh...am I being arrested for refusing a breathalizer? I can see how you could do that and be innocent. I mean, yeah, you're asking for trouble, but I can't see it lasting more than 36 hours before everything is cleared up. But that would be a case where you see it coming. I mean, you were pulled over, and made the decision not to submit to the test, so.... In that case, I wouldn't run or resist, because it wouldn't seem necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Alright, here is my position on the subject. I have tried to put it the simplest terms. 1. Humans have certain rights, these rights include, in order of importance Life, Liberty, and Property. 2. These Precede the State, they come from the Creator, and not from the State. 3. These rights cannot justly be taken from a human being by anyone, for any reason; however, they can be forfeited by the person holding them. A person forfeits these rights by unjustly attempting to remove the rights of another. 4. A person is empowered to defend these rights against those who would take them, including the use of force, up to and including deadly force, in order to defend any right he has not forfeited. 5. As a human’s rights do not stem from the state, nor from the community, these bodies cannot take them, nor can they impose upon them without a direct immediate threat to others rights which preeminent. The right to life can never justly removed as no other right could supersede it. 5a. So communities could justly draft (a violation of liberty) to protect the community as a whole from imminent death, but could not hold people in bondage for any time after the crisis was over. Nor could they draft preemptively. 6. The states claim to enforcement of laws is valid so long as those laws are designed to protect the rights of human beings. 7. While the state is empowered to enforce laws for the public good, the individual is not required to offer his rights up at the altar of the state. While he might choose to submit he is not obliged to surrender to those who would attempt to violate his rights. 8. No authority is empowered to remove the rights that they did not bestow. The Good Faith of an agent of the state has no bearing on the right of defense, just as the moral status of a soldier has no bearing on the right of a soldier to use deadly force upon him. 9. Thus it is morally licit for an innocent man to resist arrest. While he may commit criminal acts while doing so as long as he does not directly violate the moral law, these crimes are not immoral, as they follow under the Principle of Double Effect. 9a. By the same token an innocent man placed in prison has the right to try and escape, and to use any proportional means to accomplish that. 9b. An innocent man being taken to his execution has the right to defend his life, even if that means killing Prison guards operating in good faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Huh, well i disagree with a lot of what you said there Don John, but there is no way i'm coherent enough right now to reply with anything that makes any sense whatsoever. I will say that it is very thought provoking, and that I will probably spend the rest of the night thinking about it. *Edit: I like that you are presenting this philosophically and sequentially, makes it easier to follow your logic, especially for my poor tired brain at this time of night. Edited May 17, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305597946' post='2242616'] he eventually did submit, but you're right, he totally should have fought back, then he definitely would have died, good call [/quote] Not necessarly. perhaps he would have killed the cops, or forced them to submit. Regardless this was a flagrent abuse of police power, and the fact that he is being charged with anything is a mark of tyranny, not just of police abuse of power, but of the state as a whole. I have to stop now as anything Isay futher on this matter would probably be sedition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305612299' post='2242687'] Huh, well i disagree with a lot of what you said there Don John, but there is no way i'm coherent enough right now to reply with anything that makes any sense whatsoever. I will say that it is very thought provoking, and that I will probably spend the rest of the night thinking about it. *Edit: I like that you are presenting this philosophically and sequentially, makes it easier to follow your logic, especially for my poor tired brain at this time of night. [/quote] I am happy it was helpful, I presented it this way on purpose, just as I tried to clarify everyones postion before posting it. I hope that we can actually have a reasonable discussion on this matter as opposed to the rather volitale "discussions" on other threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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