Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[Groo the Wanderer]

Both parts of the question are too broad to answer. All of the options are both correct and incorrect, depending on the circumstances.



Let's talk about pizza toppings instead

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305538973' post='2242235']
Well I don't think you'll be back in three day's time.
[/quote]
I haven't been banned yet, but the day is young.

[Era Might]

Funny to see this thread because I just started reading Franz Kafka's "The Trial," which begins with this arresting sentence: "Someone must have been telling lies about Joseph K., for without having done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." Kafka is win btw (the writer, not the phatmasser, although the phatmasser is cool too).

[Laudate_Dominum]

neato. this thread is interesting.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305562454' post='2242303']
I haven't been banned yet, but the day is young.
[/quote]
I think he means if your dead.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1305562315' post='2242302']
Both parts of the question are too broad to answer. All of the options are both correct and incorrect, depending on the circumstances.



Let's talk about pizza toppings instead
[/quote]
Then your answer is yes under certain circumstances

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305552127' post='2242252']
i never said it forbid self defense. i said if we are to truely follow the example of Jesus and the apostles, then we need to look at how they willingly and gladly were persecuted for their faith and rightousness. to truely be the best catholic we can be we should follow their example. don't you agree?
[/quote] well if I get the opportunity to be the sacrifice sufficient for the whole world. I won .t resist

[MithLuin]

Uniting your sufferings with the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of souls is [i]always[/i] an option.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305523155' post='2242198']
So your answer is yes but only under certian circumstances?

So the just man is obliged to surrender his right to liberty and his ablitiy to defend his own life, and defending your self in court is not the same thing, that is trusting your life to others, the jury. Unless he knows that the people coming to arrest him are not acting in good faith.

Is that your position?
[/quote]

Close.

I never mentioned the jury, just the court, because in some cases, it's only the judge you'll be dealing with.

I did not deny that an innocent man has the right to liberty. I was saying that the method of fighting for that right in a country ruled by law is to take the case to the courts. If justice is not done, appeal. Etc. A Christian should of course pray to God that justice be done throughout the entire process.

I also thought it very important to bring up expediency. If what you want is your freedom, acting in a way that is likely to curtail your freedom is not the smartest choice of action. If while resisting arrest you (even accidentally) kill the police officer, you are no longer innocent and will certainly be charged with [i]that[/i] crime, too.

If there is a reasonable suspicion that the rule of law will not dispense justice (meaning, the scenario involves people being arrested and thrown in jail or executed [u]without trial[/u]), then submitting to this dubious action doesn't seem like the wisest move. Running away is likely more effective than fighting, though. (Again, if what you want is to preserve your freedom.)

Under no circumstance do you want to end up in a Mexican or Kenyan jail. Honduran jail....also not fun, though the story I know for that one at least did not involve an innocent person. Still, it's a gruesome tale. I would be very sympathetic to anyone (innocent or guilty) trying to avoid such a scenario...though that doesn't make them [i]right[/i].

See the 'certain circumstances' are much more pervasive injustice than simply arresting an innocent man. If the society has a lot of justice issues, the way people are arrested and the way justice for accused criminals is handled is likely to be...unjust. How best to proceed under those circumstances will focus on how to deal with the [i]real[/i] injustice, not your specific arrest which is related to the bigger problem. Assuming the [i]only[/i] injustice we are discussing is that you are being detained and arrested even though you are innocent, then yes, I see no reason not to submit to the arrest and then clear your name (possibly by having the charges dropped before it even goes to trial).

Anyway, all people should work for justice. Maintaining innocence while being arrested makes sense, but resisting arrest likely causes more problems than it solves. Cooperation tends to be more effective. The police officer is not doing anything unjust in arresting you, so unless there is some extenuating circumstance, fighting back violently would [i]not[/i] be justified. The police officer does not have the authority to drop the charges against you in most circumstances, so you'd be putting him in an untenable position if you demand he rectify the situation without arresting you. Your right to liberty does not give you the right to deprive him of his life (which he also has a right to).

And honestly, how does one resist arrest without breaking more laws? Even if you are innocent of the initial charges, you're now guilty of whatever charges they will slap on you for resisting arrest. How did that help?



Franz Kafka with his sister:
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dQ4Z2g5agPM/TE9yuCAC90I/AAAAAAAAAH4/gygRTkdkf_s/s1600/Franz++with+Ottla+his+favorite+sister..jpg[/img]





He's kinda cute, though he does have big ears

Edited May 16, 2011 by MithLuin

[Era Might]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305566060' post='2242350']Under no circumstance do you want to end up in a Mexican or Kenyan jail. Honduran jail....also not fun, though the story I know for that one at least did not involve an innocent person. Still, it's a gruesome tale. I would be very sympathetic to anyone (innocent or guilty) trying to avoid such a scenario...though that doesn't make them [i]right[/i].
[/quote]
In Central America it's risky to even pull over for the police, especially at night. You don't know if it's gang members pretending to be police, or could be corrupt policemen.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305564426' post='2242325']
I think he means if your dead.
[/quote]
CHECK OUT THE BIG BRAIN ON DON! YOU A SMART MOTHER*****, DON.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Winchester

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305564529' post='2242327']
Then your answer is yes under certain circumstances
[/quote]


For the first part yes, but the second part, which is mandatory upon taking the poll cannot be answered for the same reason....

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1305567004' post='2242359']
In Central America it's risky to even pull over for the police, especially at night. You don't know if it's gang members pretending to be police, or could be corrupt policemen.
[/quote]

Exactly.

I know of at least one case in CA where a man posed as a police officer and used that guise to abduct a girl with a flat tire from the side of the road. (It's unclear if he was stalking her and caused the flat, or simply was opportunistic about it.) Regardless, her body was found in his chest freezer 2 years later.

[CatherineM]

There is another problem with this discussion. Arrests happen too fast usually to get too philosophical. Plus, most people who resist are intoxicated. That's not the best way to deal with the police.

[Winchester]

"I did not commit the murder they're arresting me for" isn't exactly Plato's [i]Republic[/i].

[Jesus_lol]

I would certainly resist/avoid arrest if i had reason to believe i was being set up to take the fall for some crime, ala Harrison Ford in The Fugitive.