Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305510838' post='2242093']
Actually, I said it.

And you agreed with me. If you agreed with me more often, you could enjoy being right.
[/quote]


or be looked at like the people who swear the aliens anal probed them last night. one or the other.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305510948' post='2242094']
or be looked at like the people who swear the aliens anal probed them last night. one or the other.
[/quote]
Either is pretty cool. Admit it.

[CatherineM]

I'm visualizing Jesus ending up on the Disorderly Conduct show for resisting arrest. Oh right, he was innocent and yet went without resisting. Not only didn't he resist arrest, he made sure none of his posse obstructed.

[havok579257]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305517497' post='2242163']
I'm visualizing Jesus ending up on the Disorderly Conduct show for resisting arrest. Oh right, he was innocent and yet went without resisting. Not only didn't he resist arrest, he made sure none of his posse obstructed.
[/quote]


i do love it when someone brings up Jesus in these instances. we as catholic talk and talk and talk about being more like Jesus. by following the model he set out for life for us. although when it comes down to it, very few of us would actually follow in his foot steps.

Jesus not to mention the apostles died for their beliefs. they refused to kill others to save their own lives. instead they rejoiced in their deaths for their faith. look at how many of us on here talk about killing an unjust aggressor. Jesus and the apostles never did this.

Jesus let himself willing be arrested without putting up a fight and even rebuked his disciple for putting up a fight. paul let himself stay in prison for how long. they were both arressted unjustly. yet we on here talk about if we were arrested because of honest human error we would have the right to resist and possible end up killing someone in the process.

Jesus said blessed are we who are persecuted for rightousness because our reward is in heaven. yet we on here talk about phsyically attacking those who persecute us.

for all our talk about following in Jesus's footsteps, maybe its time we actually did it instead of just talking big about it.

[MithLuin]

Another thing to keep in mind is that fleeing the cops and/or resisting arrest makes you look guilty, and [i]will[/i] be brought up in court, should your case go to trial. So, whether or not you have the right to resist, it might not be the wisest course of action and you should probably think twice about it. If an innocent man [i]acts[/i] guilty, he may be more likely to be mistaken for a guilty man. And the police officers might not act with the most patience and forbearance in putting up with your shenanigans, so you might face some serious consequences if you up the stakes...the stand off could end with them shooting you rather than arresting you.


I think that in general, no, you don't have the right to be a jerk to the police officer, though you [i]do[/i] have the right to defend yourself [i]in court[/i] and to work tirelessly to clear your name. In that sense, at no point do you have to 'give in' to the charges or arrest. By skipping town rather than dealing with the baseless accusations, you fail to clear your name and create more suspicion that you are guilty, which at the very least opens the door for scandal. In general, one should avoid scandal if possible, and work hard to clear up the misunderstandings that led to the false accusation.


An exception would be a system that is so corrupt that the police officers are really just....well, whatever the polite term for thugs would be. I would have a hard time telling someone to let the jackboot Nazis arrest them, knowing that there is going to be no 'trial', and the person is just going to be taken behind the building and shot. In that scenario, you run away, if you can. If you can't...well, you end up dead, and so the only advice to give is to make sure your conscience is clear when you go. Of course, invading armies aren't generally seen as legitimate authorities, and fighting back in the middle of a war is a different scenario than the one proposed at the beginning. In general, the use of deadly force would [i]not[/i] be justified in the scenario as outlined, but there are likely exceptions that fit that general outline where it would...but the justification for deadly force is [i]not[/i] that an officer of the law attempts to arrest you for something you did not do. The justification would hinge on the special case that happens to coincide with that incident.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305509748' post='2242081']
As observers but part of society there is no magic ability to look at someone and determine their guilt, we have to trust the system rather than be vigilantes. Unfortunately the system gets it wrong at times.


As an Atheist my opinion is going to vary greatly from the Catholics on this forum. This neither makes me wrong or right, this is simply my current opinion.
I feel the concept of morals is difficult to define. I don't tend to use the term in my self explainations. I have a set of personal values, which help me make my own decisions quicker than if I didn't have these values. However I don't even accept my own values to be set in concrete. They are open for debate and even though the older and "wiser/set in my ways" that I get these become more difficult to change, but change is possible.

I don't subscribe to a position of absolute morals, although you would have to have something seriously wrong with you if you were to think child rape was OK.

Anyway, getting back onto topic, I feel people can have a personal set of values or can hold to a group's set of morals (e.g. Catholic Church).
With this Point of View in mind only you can answer the question "Morally do I have the right to resist?"
For me the governing laws have a huge priority (however they tend to align with my personal values, so generally no problem). For a Catholic or Christian or any other Theist for that matter, I could see how this person might prioritise on their god's stance over and above that of government.

I don't have enough theological knowledge with regards to the dilema that Catholics may face with regards to the Original Post here.
[/quote]


I understand. Its refreshing, an athiest i could hve a beer with. Seriously I understand your postition completly. I don't agree, but it is a real position which i well articulated.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305517497' post='2242163']
I'm visualizing Jesus ending up on the Disorderly Conduct show for resisting arrest. Oh right, he was innocent and yet went without resisting. Not only didn't he resist arrest, he made sure none of his posse obstructed.
[/quote]
Jesus had to die for our sins to be forgiven, he was the blood sacrifice, his blood had to be shed to atone for our sins. That is not a workable analogy.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305518354' post='2242168']
i do love it when someone brings up Jesus in these instances. we as catholic talk and talk and talk about being more like Jesus. by following the model he set out for life for us. although when it comes down to it, very few of us would actually follow in his foot steps.

Jesus not to mention the apostles died for their beliefs. they refused to kill others to save their own lives. instead they rejoiced in their deaths for their faith. look at how many of us on here talk about killing an unjust aggressor. Jesus and the apostles never did this.

Jesus let himself willing be arrested without putting up a fight and even rebuked his disciple for putting up a fight. paul let himself stay in prison for how long. they were both arressted unjustly. yet we on here talk about if we were arrested because of honest human error we would have the right to resist and possible end up killing someone in the process.

Jesus said blessed are we who are persecuted for rightousness because our reward is in heaven. yet we on here talk about phsyically attacking those who persecute us.

for all our talk about following in Jesus's footsteps, maybe its time we actually did it instead of just talking big about it.
[/quote]



Please read Saint Augustine.


That said, Jesus whipped the money changers and drove them like animals from the Temple. Jesus told his apostles to sell thier cloaks and buy swords.

Jesus was not a pacifist . No where does the Bible forbid the right to self defense.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305519413' post='2242178']
Another thing to keep in mind is that fleeing the cops and/or resisting arrest makes you look guilty, and [i]will[/i] be brought up in court, should your case go to trial. So, whether or not you have the right to resist, it might not be the wisest course of action and you should probably think twice about it. If an innocent man [i]acts[/i] guilty, he may be more likely to be mistaken for a guilty man. And the police officers might not act with the most patience and forbearance in putting up with your shenanigans, so you might face some serious consequences if you up the stakes...the stand off could end with them shooting you rather than arresting you.


I think that in general, no, you don't have the right to be a jerk to the police officer, though you [i]do[/i] have the right to defend yourself [i]in court[/i] and to work tirelessly to clear your name. In that sense, at no point do you have to 'give in' to the charges or arrest. By skipping town rather than dealing with the baseless accusations, you fail to clear your name and create more suspicion that you are guilty, which at the very least opens the door for scandal. In general, one should avoid scandal if possible, and work hard to clear up the misunderstandings that led to the false accusation.


An exception would be a system that is so corrupt that the police officers are really just....well, whatever the polite term for thugs would be. I would have a hard time telling someone to let the jackboot Nazis arrest them, knowing that there is going to be no 'trial', and the person is just going to be taken behind the building and shot. In that scenario, you run away, if you can. If you can't...well, you end up dead, and so the only advice to give is to make sure your conscience is clear when you go. Of course, invading armies aren't generally seen as legitimate authorities, and fighting back in the middle of a war is a different scenario than the one proposed at the beginning. In general, the use of deadly force would [i]not[/i] be justified in the scenario as outlined, but there are likely exceptions that fit that general outline where it would...but the justification for deadly force is [i]not[/i] that an officer of the law attempts to arrest you for something you did not do. The justification would hinge on the special case that happens to coincide with that incident.
[/quote]

So your answer is yes but only under certian circumstances?


So the just man is obliged to surrender his right to liberty an his ablitiy to defend his own life, and defending your self in court is not the same thing, that is trusting your life to others, the jury. Unless he knows that the people coming to arrest him are not acting in good faith.

Is that your position.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305523155' post='2242198']
So your answer is yes but only under certian circumstances?


So the just man is obliged to surrender his right to liberty an his ablitiy to defend his own life, and defending your self in court is not the same thing, that is trusting your life to others, the jury. Unless he knows that the people coming to arrest him are not acting in good faith.

Is that your position.
[/quote]

you know, if you didnt end everyone of your posts in this thread with some variant of "is that your position?" it would be a lot less annoying.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1305527540' post='2242207']
you know, if you didnt end everyone of your posts in this thread with some variant of "is that your position?" it would be a lot less annoying.
[/quote]
Well youhave notice i have not made any arguement. Accept that Jesus' death is not analgous to bod the ironworkers death.


I am trying to come to an understanding about whatthey really think, before ny arguement is made. That is a major problem in many threads tomany arguements and no one really knows what anyone else is says for 4 pages. I want to know exactly what they contend, and frankly I find a lot of people have never really thought about most things in that way, and don't really know what their postions are.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305528957' post='2242211']
Well youhave notice i have not made any arguement. Accept that Jesus' death is not analgous to bod the ironworkers death.


I am trying to come to an understanding about whatthey really think, before ny arguement is made. That is a major problem in many threads tomany arguements and no one really knows what anyone else is says for 4 pages. I want to know exactly what they contend, and frankly I find a lot of people have never really thought about most things in that way, and don't really know what their postions are.
[/quote]

I figured that was what was going on. just letting you know its coming across a little annoying. "is that your final answer??? are you suuuuuuuuure?"

[stevil]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1305532439' post='2242222']
I figured that was what was going on. just letting you know its coming across a little annoying. "is that your final answer??? are you suuuuuuuuure?"
[/quote]
For what it is worth, I quite liked Don John of Austria's approach. It was clear to me that he wanted to gain a better understanding of my thoughts.
Some people naturally have a defensive personality, my wife does, maybe she would feel attacked by a statement of "is that your position?", I don't know.

[Winchester]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305517497' post='2242163']
I'm visualizing Jesus ending up on the Disorderly Conduct show for resisting arrest. Oh right, he was innocent and yet went without resisting. Not only didn't he resist arrest, he made sure none of his posse obstructed.
[/quote]
Well I don't think you'll be back in three day's time.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305522861' post='2242197']
Please read Saint Augustine.


That said, Jesus whipped the money changers and drove them like animals from the Temple. Jesus told his apostles to sell thier cloaks and buy swords.

Jesus was not a pacifist . No where does the Bible forbid the right to self defense.
[/quote]


i never said it forbid self defense. i said if we are to truely follow the example of Jesus and the apostles, then we need to look at how they willingly and gladly were persecuted for their faith and rightousness. to truely be the best catholic we can be we should follow their example. don't you agree?