Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306208487' post='2245238']
I guess my whole problem with this (resisting arrest) is the fact that it is placing one individual's rights over another's. Who is to say who's rights come first? In resisting arrest, a person is asserting their own rights, but in doing so may/do violate the rights of others. How is this a better or more moral solution?
[/quote]


If you have the right to defend yourself, and you are not the aggressor, and you have not forfieted you rights, your rights come first.

they are the aggressor, they are attacking you, if they leave and you chase them down to attack them then that might be a different story, but so long as you are simply trying to escape, and you are innocent, you have everyright to defend yourself.


You cannot violate the rights of an unjust aggressor, he has no rights.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1306207079' post='2245230']
This thread wasn't really about gun laws, so much as whether or not you should resist arrest physically or with a weapon...or by running away...or by dealing with the injustice through the legal system. My vote is for the legal system. I'm not going to shoot someone who is doing his job in good faith and acting on the best information available to him and deprive his family of a husband and father simply because I don't want to spend any time in handcuffs. True, the only time I've been in a cop car was when an officer gave me a ride home after I wrecked my car and couldn't get ahiold of anyone to come pick me up. It's not like I've ever been a suspect in a crime.
[/quote]

It was not if one [i]should[/i] resist arrest physically or with a weapon, or by running away. It was if one had the[i] right [/i]to resist arrest physically or with a weapon, or by running away.

[i]Should[/i], and [i]the right to[/i] are not the same thing at all.


[quote]And as for cars...yes, they are dangerous. And we do make rules about who can drive them and have penalties for people who do not obey basic rules. You can go to jail for driving drunk, even if you don't kill anyone. [/quote]


Actually we do not have rules about who can drive them, or who can own them, and you can drive them completly drunk with no penalty, so long as you are not on public roads.

I have no problem with similar restrictions on gun on public property, but we restrict them in someones home, that is a completley different matter.

[stevil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306191371' post='2245088']
Thank you. I am not concerned with actual police procedures, but instead your opinion.
[/quote]
For the most part I am very liberal, however i don't consider possession of firearms to be a right. Hence my thoughts on the matter certainly come from the perspective of what I would deem as a functioning society.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306191371' post='2245088']
I am troubled that you would advocate incarceration for the possession of a firearm, which violates no one's rights.
[/quote]
We differ greatly with regards to whether it is a right. From my perspective of it not being a right, it a societies leaders decide it is safer for people not to possess guns, then they need a way to enforce that. Law breakers face consequences.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306191371' post='2245088']
The abhorrence I have to incarcerating a man for carrying a firearm cannot be overstated. To imprison someone for the simple act of [i]owning [/i]a firearm violates human rights and human dignity.
[/quote]
It's interesting, this discussion. At times I am reading the statements Catholics are saying here and I am feeling you guys appear to be somewhat bipolar.
For example, Catholics are adamantly against the use of condoms or even sex education is school. So to me this seems like you are for people carrying around guns and potentially shooting each other but are against people practicing safe sex. You are for children being taught the ins and outs of guns but against them learning about the ins and outs of their own bodies and sexuality.
You feel having a gun taken away and you being imprisoned for blantantly disobeying the law violates human rights and human dignity but you refuse to support gay people being in love, living together and being married like everyone else that chooses to do so.
I don't get it.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306191371' post='2245088']
You do not even stop your state's authority at my front door.
[/quote]
Many laws are broken in the home.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306191371' post='2245088']
You would cause me harm when I do not cause you harm.
[/quote]
Seperating you from your gun causes you harm?

Edited May 24, 2011 by stevil

[stevil]

double post

Edited May 24, 2011 by stevil

[stevil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306193104' post='2245108']
Disarming me does not prevent murder. I am not a murderer[/quote]

Hypothetical question for you.

You are coming back from dinner at a restaurant, you arrive at your car and find that someone is inside having broken the window and is only just starting it up.
You have your trusty sidearm discretely consealed under your jacket.
Do you pull your gun out, point it at the theif and demand that they get out of your car?

What happens if they smile back at you, pull the finger and drive off.
Do you shoot at them?

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306222872' post='2245298']
For the most part I am very liberal...'

So to me this seems like you are for people carrying around guns and potentially shooting each other...
[/quote]


First - duh

Second - you just aren't getting it. Tis not about the right to go around shooting people. It's about the right to defend oneself and others from deadly aggression.


It takes the cops 3-5 minutes (if yer lucky) to get to you once you dial 911. By that time you are dead, robbed, raped, or all of the above. It takes less than 5 seconds to double-tap the perp if you are practiced.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306208487' post='2245237']
I guess my whole problem with this (resisting arrest) is the fact that it is placing one individual's rights over another's. Who is to say who's rights come first?



*Note: this may not make sense to anyone but em
[/quote]
The one who did not initiate the aggression. That's easy.

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306222872' post='2245298']
We differ greatly with regards to whether it is a right. From my perspective of it not being a right, it a societies leaders decide it is safer for people not to possess guns, then they need a way to enforce that. Law breakers face consequences.[/quote]
Do you consider self defense a right?


[quote]It's interesting, this discussion. At times I am reading the statements Catholics are saying here and I am feeling you guys appear to be somewhat bipolar.
For example, Catholics are adamantly against the use of condoms or even sex education is school. So to me this seems like you are for people carrying around guns and potentially shooting each other but are against people practicing safe sex. You are for children being taught the ins and outs of guns but against them learning about the ins and outs of their own bodies and sexuality.[/quote]
I haven't seen anyone advocating imprisoning people for using condoms. Or even making condoms illegal.


[quote]You feel having a gun taken away and you being imprisoned for blantantly disobeying the law violates human rights and human dignity but you refuse to support gay people being in love, living together and being married like everyone else that chooses to do so.[/quote]

I haven't advocated any law banning homosexuality. I do find it ridiculous that a group would seek permission from the government. I would like the government out of the private agreement that is marriage.


[quote]
Seperating you from your gun causes you harm?
[/quote]
Confiscating private property according to the whims of someone else causes anyone harm.

[MithLuin]

[quote][b]Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.[/b] For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. [b]For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.[/b] For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

1 Peter 2: 13-20[/quote]

Well, if one does have the right to resist lawful arrest, St. Peter at least advises Christians not to exercise this right.

So practically speaking, no, a Christian can [i]not[/i] justly resist arrest with deadly force, as such an action would cause scandal. As the rest of the first letter of Peter makes clear...we are strangers here, and our treasure is in heaven. No one will violate your rights there.

If some random stranger off the street tries to kidnap you, surely you can resist this lawless behavior. But if you are seeking to resist the police, you cannot disregard their rightful authority.

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306231558' post='2245308']
Hypothetical question for you.

You are coming back from dinner at a restaurant, you arrive at your car and find that someone is inside having broken the window and is only just starting it up.
You have your trusty sidearm discretely consealed under your jacket.
Do you pull your gun out, point it at the theif and demand that they get out of your car?

What happens if they smile back at you, pull the finger and drive off.
Do you shoot at them?
[/quote]
It would depend on the situation, but someone taking my vehicle would cause a great deal of harm to my family. But I would not rule out lethal force to keep my vehicle from being stolen.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1306239945' post='2245333']
Well, if one does have the right to resist lawful arrest, St. Peter at least advises Christians not to exercise this right.

So practically speaking, no, a Christian can [i]not[/i] justly resist arrest with deadly force, as such an action would cause scandal. As the rest of the first letter of Peter makes clear...we are strangers here, and our treasure is in heaven. No one will violate your rights there.

If some random stranger off the street tries to kidnap you, surely you can resist this lawless behavior. But if you are seeking to resist the police, you cannot disregard their rightful authority.
[/quote]
I don't see any mention of those appointed by a mob.

[MithLuin]

Le roi est mort. Vive le roi!

So because we don't live in a monarchy, we don't have to recognize teh authoritay of the government? Doesn't seem like an authentic understanding of Catholic social teaching to me.....

And New Zealand is all commonwealth-y, so does it apply there?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306239959' post='2245334']
It would depend on the situation, but someone taking my vehicle would cause a great deal of harm to my family. But I would not rule out lethal force to keep my vehicle from being stolen.
[/quote]


i could never justify killing someone over a piece of property. something you can replace where as someone's life is never replaceable.

life is to sacred to throw it away over a piece of property.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1306250134' post='2245374']
i could never justify killing someone over a piece of property. something you can replace where as someone's life is never replaceable.

life is to sacred to throw it away over a piece of property.
[/quote]
It's not simply the property. It's the harm that would come to my family in the loss of that property. You're looking at thousands of dollars I don't have to spend. I could lose my home over that sort of loss. So you really don't know my situation or the damage it would inflict on me.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]It's interesting, this discussion. At times I am reading the statements Catholics are saying here and I am feeling you guys appear to be somewhat bipolar.
For example, Catholics are adamantly against the use of condoms or even sex education is school. So to me this seems like you are for people carrying around guns and potentially shooting each other but are against people practicing safe sex. You are for children being taught the ins and outs of guns but against them learning about the ins and outs of their own bodies and sexuality.
You feel having a gun taken away and you being imprisoned for blantantly disobeying the law violates human rights and human dignity but you refuse to support gay people being in love, living together and being married like everyone else that chooses to do so.
I don't get it. [/quote]


Sex ed has never been condemned by the Church nor anyreasonable person within her, so long as it is, as you say "learning the ends and outs of thier own bodies and sexuality". It is when it such things leave biological and factual learning, and entery the relm of social engineering that conflict arises.

I have never a had a parent concerned that their child was learnign about the menstral cycle, or the production of sex cells, or the development of
seconary sex characteristics. Condom use has nothing to do with the biology of the human body.

There is nothing bipolar about saying all human beings have a fundemental right to life, and part of that right, is the Right to self defense. Guns are the tool of choice for the exsercise of that right.

No one objects to gay people being in love, and Homosexual people have exactly the same marriage rights that Hetrosexual people do.
They can marry anyone of the opposite sex that they choose with whom there is no impedement to marriage.

One can love ones sister, one might have disordered affection for her and find her sexually attractive and desire her but one cannot marry her.

There is nothing inconsistant here.






[quote]Seperating you from your gun causes you harm?[/quote] Since it reduces my ability to defend my life, and he lives of those for whom I am responsable , yes.